Jodi: Hi, Janine. Thank you for joining me this episode to share your first date story.

Janine: Jodi, it’s so great to be here. Thank you.

Jodi: I am really excited to delve into your story today. Before we do that though, I’d love it if you would share a bit about yourself, so that listeners get a sense of who you are.

Janine: Thank you, Jodi.

It’s exciting to be here as well. I am in my mid-fifties, I had the gift and the burden of a quarter century marriage that I chose to leave after a certain point, when I decided that the ways that I wanted to grow and be in this world, took me away from who I was and the commitments that I made. At the beginning when I was a young person and didn’t know myself very well, we had the incredible gift of a very large community and a beautiful young daughter who was now in college and thriving.

And I had left my marriage to begin in a whirlwind adventure of dating. And that continued for eight years. And I had reached the point where I had had a remarkable career, significant impact in the world and the gift of several decades of self-development. And I found myself wondering, will I ever find the person that can meet me where I am now?

And who can grow with me for the next 40 years as I become the things I can’t even possibly imagine and dream of?

Jodi: Thank you for sharing that. Now you said you spent eight years dating prior to the date we’re going to discuss, I presume.

Janine: Yes.

Jodi: How were you feeling about dating after those eight years had transpired?

Janine: I love that question and I felt so many different ways during different parts of that experience. I remember when I left my marriage, I spent several months coming to grips with the enormity of the change that I had brought, and then got very curious, after a quarter century of being with one person, what it would be like to meet and date other people.

And so being a very analytical person, I created a spreadsheet and embarked on 80 dates over the next year and a half, and was very methodical about it and really felt like a cultural anthropologist at that time. I had had the gift of many of my personal needs being met in marriage. I felt like I had been partnered.

So when I left my marriage, I felt like I was coming, not from a place of scarcity, but from a place of curiosity and excitement.

And so I went on all kinds of dates with people that I would never consider going out with more than maybe twice, maybe three times, just because I was trying to have the sense of what it’s like to be so many different ways of being human.

I got to try on for a night or for an hour, or when things really didn’t go well for 30 minutes, what it was like to be another human for just a little bit. And I could picture myself, what would my life be like if I were with this kind of person?

And it was a wonderful process of self-discovery. And it allowed me to feel like I was experiencing the world in a whole new way

One of the roles of dating is to explore who we are and also to find people who can mirror the things that we are wanting to grow and to become. It’s a way of cultivating our sense of self in relationship with someone else.

It was probably the beginning of COVID when I reached a point of thinking, is dating, making sense for me anymore? Does this really serve me? What are the ways that I abandoned myself when I go out with someone more than a couple of times and recognize very early on that this is not a partnership that will last even a medium amount of time? Why devote my energies, my very precious life energies, towards something that won’t truly fulfill me?

And so I had reached a point in the summer of COVID and all of the challenges that, that time that I was thinking, I would probably not be partnered for the rest of my life and recognized the joy and the richness of what my life was and decided to devote myself to simply making the best of the life that I did have, but being available now and then for dates. So that’s what proceeded this.

Jodi: You experienced all different types of interactions with different types of men that enriched your life experience. You spoke about abandoning yourself, or “not abandoning myself” is what you said, by spending time with men who were not the right fit for you.

Why did you look at it in that light?

Janine: It was quite intentional. As we frequently find in this extended life journey of self-examination the same ideas and issues and patterns keep arising time and time again, no matter how much work we do, no matter how skillful we become, no matter how many tools we have in our toolkit, it’s still the same material that we work with just in different circumstances, in different manners.

And so I probably first heard that phrase, “What are the ways that you abandon yourself in relationship?” maybe a decade, two decades earlier. And it didn’t land so solidly the first dozen or two dozen times that I was asked these questions. And then at a certain point, we really began to work very closely with the material that still arises.

So I, like many people, I had little affirmations on my mirror and they were the qualities that I wanted to embody in my moment to moment existence.  “Joyful, fully alive and vibrant, kind, loving, wise,” and at the bottom, the longest one was the phrase “Never abandoned myself.” And so when we embark on journeys to really discover who we are to become aware of what our true nature.

It’s this shedding of things that don’t serve that really fall by the wayside. So I was quite intentional about that.

Jodi: Clearly. I love that you had all those affirmations on your mirror. What a great way to start your day, looking at all of that and in taking it all in and trying to consume all of those positive aspirations and into every day that you live. That’s tremendous.

Janine: It is a practice that’s available to all of us. And I feel grateful to be so much closer to a moment, a moment, moment by moment, appreciation of where I placed my attention, where I devote my energies, the people I surround myself with and the ways that I shaped my thoughts so that my experiences become what it is that I seek.

Jodi: As you started to discuss the eight years that you spent in the dating world prior to this date we’re about to get into, you mentioned that you had created a spreadsheet. I’m intrigued! Was that spreadsheet just use to track the names and contact information of the men that you met? Or were there….

Janine: You know that’s not true. (Laughter)

Jodi: I know that was not true. (Laughter) Okay then, let’s get into it. What else? What other parameters?

Janine: Jodi, that would be a bunch of stickies on a bathroom mirror. (Laughter) On a spreadsheet, you need a lot more columns than that.

Jodi: Okay. Let’s talk about the different parameters that you had added into that spreadsheet. Please share that with me and all the listeners.

Janine: I went about this because I knew that it would require consistent methodical effort. It’s a numbers game, finding the right person that matches all of the parameters that you seek. And so it was a way of just like any large project that we undertake in our professional lives or big tasks that we do personally, there were many steps to it.

And so, using this tool of tracking who am I going help with? What are the things that matter? The people that they name like a child? Where they’re from, all of those things, you know, it’s kind to be able to, if you are going to see someone again, to be able to pick up the conversation where you left off, even if you’re seeing several people, in consecutive dates and I was very efficient in my process.

So I would generally save dating day for a certain day of the week. And then I would go generally on three or four first dates, half an hour. I was not going to devote more time to it than that. You can get a good sense of if there’s an energetic fit or just even a general orientation to life in similar ways.

I would make the choice at 30 minutes and I’m abandoning myself by devoting another 30 minutes. And if I was, I would be very clear and I would simply say, “Thank you so much for making time for me today. I’ve enjoyed our chat and I need to be moving on now.”

My perception of it is, after having had more than a hundred dates, that I had a lot of clarity about the kind of person that I would want to see a second time or third time or a fourth time.

And that I had devoted 20 years to understanding myself and how I want to move in the world. And I had a lot of clarity about that, and I still do

Jodi: The date that we are going to now get into happen during the pandemic. Where were you in your life prior to the time when this date took place?

Janine: I had recently come to the conclusion that I would not be dating any, if at all. And every few weeks…I still had all of my three or four dating apps that I would look at.

I did go on a handful of dates during the first few months of COVID, socially distanced, outdoor hiking, very far away on the other side of the path, but had really come to a place of, I want to say comfort, but I’m also recognizing there’s elements of resignation and of acceptance and determination to lead a full and rich life, but probably letting this piece of my life go because the qualities that I hope to find in someone mirroring the things that I love and treasure about myself were probably just going to be. Too tall of an order.

Jodi: That means that you had gotten to this place because you had accepted and fully embraced the love you have for yourself and that you are enough.

Janine:. Yes, yes. It’s such a great revelation and such an important place to arrive. And, you know, sadly for many of us, it happens later in life. I, one of the unusual aspects of my life is that I’m a twin.

So I like to say, not only am I an extrovert, but that I’ve been partnered since the first cell of my existence. And so, I had believed that partnership was necessary in a normal function of the life that I wanted to live. And I had reached the point, recognizing that I didn’t want to abandon myself in relationship anymore, and that I was willing to let that go.

Jodi: But you didn’t.

Janine:  I didn’t. I hung in there a little bit longer. (Laughter)

Jodi: Okay. Let’s proceed then with the story. So COVID….so it’s early months. COVID is raging.

Janine: Yes. COVID is raging that summer. I’m just very isolated at this point. And I’m in a region of the country that took it very seriously. So we were very consistently isolated.

So every few weeks I would open up my apps and just take a look. And on this particular day, I opened up one of the apps and there was an image of someone I literally like gasped. (Laughter)

And then I read the profile and I was so amazed to just be met and so many different parts of my career, my intellectual life and my education and my activities and my spiritual life. And so he had sent a message. He found me and he said, “Well, I don’t know if this is going to work, but I’m going to give it a shot. Tell me how you’re doing today.”

And he said that because he was in a different part of the country. And I didn’t notice that I just looked at the image and the profile and it was like, how can I not respond? And so I wrote back “The universe must know something that we don’t, because I’m responding. I’m great. How are you?”

Jodi: I was quite a response. And this is Kevin who you were responding to, correct?

Janine: Yes. Yes.

Jodi: What did he do? Did he immediately write back.

Janine: Absolutely. We started texting in the app, morning and night until we arranged….well, the next day he said, let’s talk. And at that, at that point, I said, “Hey, let’s go for a hike.”

And he said, “Well, I don’t know if I’m going to make that. I’m a little bit far away.” And then I finally realized he was an airplane ride away.

And so, at this point I thought, “Well, okay, maybe I’m going to find my partner in another part of the country. We’ll cross that bridge when we get there.”

So I said, “Let’s go for a hike and I’ll meet you at the top of the mountain, near my house. And you can pick where you’re going to be.”

Jodi: Clever! That’s really clever!

Janine: It was so much fun! And it was a sunrise chat. So I got, got to the top of the mountain and the sun was rising and it was a beautiful hike and he was on the beach. And so we ended up talking for two and a half hours that first morning, and it was just an incredible beginning.

Jodi: You sat there on the mountain top and he sat there on the beach with your phones and decent cell coverage?

Janine: Yes

Jodi: And you just talked? Did you actually see one another or was it a phone conversation?

Janine: I am so annoyed about this part because of course, you know, I am originally from the south, so I, you know, put myself together. Um, and I thought we were doing a Zoom call and then, you know, ego doesn’t exist just for the, the female part of, of the world when I said, okay, let’s zoom.

And he’s like, wait a minute. I didn’t know. Um, I can’t do video. I’m not ready. (Laughter)

Jodi: Oh, it must’ve been such a disappointment for you.

Janine: I still can remember it. I was really disappointed, but you know, you let these things go right and focus on what matters.

Jodi: What happened next?

Janine: I spent the next week talking on the phone, doing zoom calls. And I was, um, at the end of that first week, I told him, “Hey, it’s, COVID. I’ve decided to rent a camper van and to climb in the van with my college-aged daughter. And we’re going to be gone for the next three weeks. And we’re going to travel all over the Pacific Northwest and all the way to the upper Midwest. So I’m going to be gone and out of cell reception for three weeks and I will catch you when I get home.”

And he said, “That sounds awesome.” And then I was gone the first two days on the road having an incredible adventure with my daughter. But I realized, “Oh, I really want to talk to him.” And so I called that first night, we were in the middle of the forest, outside a highway in the middle of the woods in Oregon trying to find cell reception.

And I was so happy to talk to him. And eventually what happened is we were talking almost every day and it was this unending series of me trying to find cell reception in Safeway parking lots in some weird town in the middle of nowhere. And it was just wonderful.

Jodi: What were you missing?

Janine: The intimacy, the connection, the ways that he saw things similarly and radically differently and the stories that he shared. But most of all, he’s just remarkably socially, emotionally intelligent, and his level of vulnerability and honesty and realness just felt like we were creating a real connection.

And that I could very early on reveal myself the things that mattered to me, my hurts and pains, my joys, my delights, all from a place of just real intimacy. And it happened pretty much from the second phone call.

Jodi: Really?

Janine: Yeah.

Jodi: Wow! He was so vulnerable with you. And, and so emotionally intelligence that you decided you could trust this man, right away.

Janine: Absolutely. Yes. And by this time I had been on more than a hundred dates and he had done the same amount of work in his life, so that by the time we found one another, there was nothing, but the ability to be our real selves without defenses, without hiding, without fear, just curiosity and delight ever unfolding layers.

Jodi: He had been married before and had kids?

Janine: Yes. He also had, yes. He also had a quarter century marriage and we each have a daughter in college. So very similar in that way. Remarkably, strangely similar, a lot

Jodi: A lot of similarities, as you say, a lot of alignment.

Janine: Yes. Yes. And so there were the practical similarities of similar socioeconomic levels, similar education levels, similar career attainment levels, similar approaches to both, achieving and engaging in the world and also deep inner work.

And that combination is very uncommon. We were very excited to see that in someone else. And that was very motivating.

Jodi: Your daughter had a front row seat literally right in the camper van, as this was all unfolding. What was she saying to you? And what were her observations about Kevin and about you as this romance was beginning from afar.

Janine: What a perceptive question. I so appreciate that. And it really is. The difference between her experience and her engagement with me and Kevin’s daughter’s experience and her engagement with him are really interesting contrasts and very much who they each are individually.

I would just try to go and have my experience on the phone alone. And every so often she would make some ride comment, “Gee Mom, you are really needing to get out and make a lot of phone calls.” And I’m like, yes, I am. (Laughter)

And at the same time I was getting, um, videos of him dancing with his daughter in the kitchen, having dance party. And then, she’s like waving to me and then sending it to me. It’s beautiful because there’s space for each of them to be who they are in their relationship with their parent. And he and his daughter are very close, enabled to share all of these things.

And my daughter and I are very close, but there’s an element of privacy around our dating lives that we don’t share that much. And so we talk about that a lot as well of, “I want this.” She’ll say “I want this part of my life to be private,” and I want her to be who she wants to be. So it was really sweet, but, I got tired of trying to find privacy and Safeway parking lots. (Laughter)

Jodi: You eventually took the calls in the camper van?

Janine: Eventually, but here’s the funny part of this story. My daughter and I were gone for three weeks. And on the second week that we were gone, Kevin said as I was telling him the adventures that we were having and all of them amazing experiences that we were having, he said, “Oh my gosh, this sounds like so much fun. I totally want to do this with you one day.”

And I said, “Okay, let’s do it now.” And he said, “Okay.” And so before we got off the phone, we made plans that he would rent a camper van for a month. And that a week after I returned home from my adventure with my daughter, he would drive up or we would get in the camper van and we would go away for a month. And I called it “The Fish or Cut Bait Tour.”

And we both agreed. We know each other ourselves really well. We feel like there is remarkable potential in this relationship and a lot of really unusual synchronicities in the paths of our lives and coming together with a person like this deserves devotion and attention and focus.

And so we knew we could get along for a month if it didn’t work out romantically, but we wanted to step into making a commitment to see, is there something really here? And we’re going to give it the time and the intention that it deserves to really figure it out.

So to me, “fish or cut bait” really means clarity about who I am, what my intentions are, how I want to move in the world and who I want to be with as I do that.

I don’t have any frustration or last straw experience around that phrase. But rather, how am I going to get to where I want to be and how can I do it efficiently, cleanly and with loving kindness?

Jodi: The answer to that question in this circumstance was, have Kevin rent a camper van and take a road trip together for a month! (Laughter)

So you did, but before we get to that, I’m curious…time had to transpire between that decision and he actually showing up with the camper van. What was going through your head during that time and through your body? Were you anxious? Excited?

Janine: Oh gosh, no, I wasn’t anxious. I was excited. But a really important practice for me is not to anticipate, but to rather to be in the present moment.

So I had happiness that that was going to happen in the future, but I was just really focused on being in my trip with my daughter. And so would reserve the times to be excited or talking about it when I was on the phone with Kevin, calling from the middle of the woods or the Safeway parking lot.

So I had also a lot of peace and a lot of curiosity of, “Oh, I wonder what’s going to happen?” But not anxiety. I think that I have such a sense of self.  I knew that if things didn’t go well, that I would have the ability to get out of the situation.

I grew up in the south and we have this idea, um, that my mom shared with me, which is “Always have your mad money.”

So if you’re going on a date, you always want to be able to get out of the date on your own without relying on anyone else so that you call the shots. So when I was growing up, that meant, having money to get to a payphone and make the phone call to say, mom, come get me.

Jodi: You needed a dime at that time, maybe a quarter? (Laughter)

Janine: Exactly!

Jodi: Now we don’t even have pay phones. You can’t even do that! (Laughter)

Janine: So I had my metaphorical mad money, right? If we ended up at the edge of the Grand Canyon and we just couldn’t take it anymore, I knew I could get home and didn’t need any help doing that and had the ability to make that choice without rancor, without disappointment, without anything, but just clarity of like, “Oh, this isn’t working.” So I didn’t have any anxiety. I just had a lot of autonomy.

Jodi: You and your daughter conclude your road trip together. You get home. You probably unpack. Clean up a bit. The week passes. Take us through ….

Janine: No, the week does not pass, Jodi.

Jodi: It doesn’t pass? Okay.

Janine: No. (Laughter)

Jodi: A plot twist!

Janine: I get home on Wednesday. And we talked the night that I get home. The plan was that he was going to take us away for a romantic weekend. And after three days we would come back and then we would get in the car to go pick up the camper van.

But I did not want to wait for that time. I said, “I want you to drive up here now.” So the next morning he got in the car and he made the 10 hour drive.

Jodi: What happened when he arrived at your house?

Janine: Well, as he tells it, he was driving into the driveway and he had been pondering for a couple of hours what would happen when he got there. Would we hug, would we kiss? Would we be awkward or weird? And that was what was playing out in his mind as he was driving down the freeway.

I didn’t have any of that experience. I was having my full workday. I was working and could see the end of the driveway down the road. And when he pulled in, I just hopped up and got all excited and went running out the door in my bare feet and running down the driveway. And he pulled over the car halfway up the driveway and put it in Park and jumped out and we just started hugging and kissing. (Laughter)

Jodi: It’s straight out of a movie! I can see it right now. Wow! What a moment you two shared!

Janine: Yeah, it was really, yeah. From the first moment of our being together, physically and energetically, which is….I believe that the truest expression of our human existence is like how it feels to stand next to someone, the comfort, the excitement, the curiosity, the delight, the appreciation, the miraculous disbelief. It was all just in that moment. It was remarkable!

Jodi: What happened next?

Janine: Well, it was actually a time….we live in a part of the country, which is basically half of the country these days, where there were extensive fires. And so our plans for the romantic getaway moved from one location, a couple of hours away to us just being in my home.

And we spent the next three days just getting to know one another. Talking all night long, just sharing everything. And I think, maybe the most moving part of this experience for me was towards the end of the first evening…I have had the experience throughout my life of periodically hearing a very strong voice in my head.

And it almost always was a message for someone else. A pregnancy that was coming. A move to another country. A message about what they were thinking. And they rarely came for me. It was almost always around physical injury or an illness, very remarkable experiences, like telling someone they’re pregnant and they find out the next day that they’re pregnant.

And this voice that evening spoke to me repeatedly. And maybe your listeners can perceive, I live in my heart, but I also really live in my mind. And so being logical, being thoughtful, being critical in my analysis, being rational, are ways of living that are important to me and this voice kept coming and it just wasn’t very rational.

And so I just chalked the voice up to my yearning, or my hope, or my excitement and my amazement at this remarkable human.

And as I’m telling the story, I’m becoming emotional because I’m just remembering the enormity of this experience. Because when the voice spoke the fourth time, I felt like I couldn’t ignore the voice anymore.

And I said to him, “I’ve heard this message four times now and I can’t ignore it anymore. Will you marry me?”

Jodi: Wow!

Janine: Yeah. But that’s not the amazing part of the story. The amazing part is that he stood there and this look of mystery and amazement came over his face and he said, you don’t know, but the first decade of my life I spent teaching tens of thousands of people, how to listen to the voice of intuition in their minds and to live, responding to that voice.

And I’ve written multiple books about this. And because you’ve asked in this way, I say “Yes.”

Jodi: He said, “Yes.”

Janine: Yeah.

Jodi: Incredible!

Janine: And that was a moment in time. What was truly incredible is the way that level of connection and clarity of intention and commitment to truly believing this is meant to be…how it transformed that next month of exploration and “fish or cut bait” into, no we’re together. This is how we do this together.

And so since that time, our relationship has just been remarkably easy, fruitful, delightful, amazing, collaborative, and just a real miracle.

Jodi: What an extraordinary story!

Janine: Yeah, the best part of it is that, uh, in a week it will be a year since we met. And since that time, that day 356 days ago, we’ve only been apart five days. And we have woven our own lives together. Our families’ lives together. Our extended communities lives together and now we are beginning to work together.

And so we actually were really embarrassed and shy and hesitant to share the story of our meeting and our first month together for many months, because we know it’s so over the top. It seems like the actions of people who don’t know themselves well, who respond to that “falling in love moment” and completely lose themselves in it.

And it was just the opposite. Psychologist speak of this time at the beginning of relationships, this intense bonding and the exclusion of other things it’s called “limerence.”

And it’s studied in relationships understood as this really serious bonding time, but also not a lot of logic or rationality to it. And the experience that we shared feels both deeply rational and profoundly miraculous.

Jodi: Have the two of you gotten married?

Janine: No, we have not done that. But we have asked one another to marry more than 500 times and every time one of us asks we pause and we reflect, and then we make the choice. And every time we have said, “Yes.”

Jodi: You are consistently then reaffirming your commitment to one another. By asking an answering that question repeatedly.

Janine: Yes, we consider ourselves life partners. We joke that we’re on the 40 year plan. (Laughter) We’ve made a solid and firm commitment that we will be together for 40 years.

And we are planning to marry, but we want the pieces of our lives that remain unsettled some business issues to fall into place. So that there’s clarity.

Maybe it was irrational in the beginning and rational in, in the subsequent month. But yeah, we’re committed and we’re partners, we’re life partners.

Jodi: How long would you say that your first date with Kevin lasted?

Janine: I find myself moved to tears that, you know, we bring, especially in this culture, like this set of stories and projections and hopes and dreams for the first date. All of what we hope for our romantic lives are just crushed on this one concept of the first date.

It’s a heavy load. And yet when I touch into, like the sense of possibility and the hope and the dreams and the belief of what can be made in many ways, that quality is still very present in our hour to hour existence together.

We many days hug many times and frequently say things like “You are my miracle,” or “Thank you for finding me” or “Thank you for not giving up” or “Thank you for believing,” because that’s what brought us together.

Jodi: That’s beautiful. And you were brought together during an extraordinarily challenging time for everyone in this country and around the world. A dark time.

Janine: Yes.

Jodi: But such light came into your life.

Janine: You know, this is the reality of the human existence. That life can be beautiful and tragic and hopeful and crushing and amazing and painful all at the same time. I feel so grateful to have had the experience of deep connection, intimacy, partnership, wise, beautiful friendship, delight, and knowing at the same time that it is a period of deep struggle for many of isolation, for many of hopelessness, for many and of loss. And so being able to hold the light in my life and be present for the darkness is the path of being human.

Jodi: You stated that so fabulously and what you just said is true, in my opinion.

Janine: Yes. And this is the gift of being present to our feelings and our emotions and allowing them to express themselves. Any emotion that we experience will not last, whether it’s intense joy, a sense of connection, a sense of despair, a sense of sadness. If we allow that emotion, it will eventually transform into another experience.

Our lives as humans move from moment to moment. And so, being able to witness and hold the complexity of all of these emotions and experience at the same time is simply a path that allows us to be most human.

Jodi: Early in our conversation, you stated that you had come to the point where you’d embraced a future as an independent woman. Not long thereafter, you met a man who is now your life partner.

Continuing as that independent woman would have given you a very meaningful existence, no doubt. But Kevin came into your world and the two of you are now a strong partnership and loving partnership from everything that you have shared.

What practical advice do you have for the women listening to us who can relate to where you were with your journey before you met Kevin?

Janine: It’s hubris to believe that I have advice for a particular person, yet having said that, what I learned about myself may resonate for others, which is this. I am amazing! I am precious! I deserve to live the life that I wish for and that compromising what I want, need and can have, is only abandoning myself. And if I choose to abandon myself, how can I expect anyone else not to?

Jodi: Very sage advice. Thank you. Thank you Janine, for coming on the show to share your really remarkable tale of coming together with Kevin, as you did, getting engaged a few hours after the two of you met in person for the first time and then proceeding on together for almost a year to form the strong bonds and the loving partnership that the two of you are creating together.

Janine: Yes. Thank you for the opportunity for me to share this. I know the work that you do is helping so many and in times of loneliness or wistfulness, having a friend to help guide us really helps us turn towards the light. So thank you for your work.

Jodi: I’m really touched by that. Thank you. Thank you so much.

The post Janine and Kevin appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi:  Welcome Sandy! It’s fabulous to have you as my guest this episode. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Sandy: Oh, I’m so excited to be here Jodi! Thank you for having me.

Jodi: This is going to be terrific. We are going to get into a date that you went on and talk all about it, but not yet. I first want to ask that you share some things about yourself with our listeners, so they get a sense of you.

Sandy:  Sure. So, my name is Sandy Wiener. I’m 65 years old, live in Stamford, Connecticut, and I have three children. My oldest is in her thirties and lives in Israel and has three beautiful children. My middle is a boy and he is living in Stamford, actually moving to a town nearby. And my youngest is living in LA.

All three kids are really creative. They’re artists and musicians and bakers and fashion designers and all kinds of cool stuff, which they get from their parents. So I was an artist my entire life until I became a life coach right after my divorce. And I’ll get into that in a minute. And my ex-husband is a comedian, a professional comedian, and we worked together most of the time we were married. I was one of the head writers for show we did for Nickelodeon for children and, did a lot of cool things. I edited film and directed him and learned I had skills I never knew I had.

But my marriage was not a good marriage. I stayed a long time, cause I’m not a quitter. I like to try and make things work. And now I know that some things are just….you’re working too hard at something that’s not going to ever work. And so I finally came to that conclusion after 23 year. I divorced my husband and I realized that a lot of who I had been had been kind of diminished. I lost a lot of myself in the marriage and I was trying to reclaim those parts after my divorce.

And so I was thinking like, what do I want to do? The art that I had done. I painted furniture. I did a whole bunch of things for people, but I never really felt fully valued for the work that I put in because art is very labor intensive, and a lot of people would nickel and dime me and I just didn’t feel valued. And so I thought, you know, back in 12th grade in my yearbook, it says, “Sandy is the go-to person for any time you have a problem. She will help you.” And so that was who I was.

And then I decided to go to become a life coach. I didn’t know what that was. A friend of mine said, “Hey, why don’t you look into this?” And it was perfect for me because it’s very goal-oriented, which I am. There…It’s practical, but it’s also deep and it’s also creative. And I even brought creativity and art into my practice doing workshops in the beginning. And I sometimes bring them back when I do retreats. So I became a dating coach after my first two years of coaching because…I was coaching, my friends who were dating and making a mess of it and I remember one friend who I used to take walks with every day. She, she was dating this really toxic guy who was telling her that he’s not at all available for a relationship. And she said, “What do you think he meant by that?” (Laughter)

Jodi: I think he just told you what he meant by that. (Laughter)

Sandy: But it’s amazing how many people don’t see what’s right in front of them. And I was helping her with her profile. I was writing profiles and helping her with her photos and, you know, doing all the online dating stuff with her. And I had no idea what I was doing, but I, I was good at it and I said, “Okay, this, this is a really fun thing to do.” And I segued my coaching into dating and relationship. And I have been doing that for almost 14 years.

After I think about three years ago, I realized the part that I love most about my work is helping women find their value. I was finding that the part about like teaching women, how to flirt or, I don’t know, you know, just kind of the nitty gritty of what a lot of people teach in dating, was not as interesting to me as the deeper work.

And so I started a new business. It’s called “The Woman of Value.” I have a Woman of Value Club, which is a membership program where women come every month and learn about dating, relationships, skills, all the things that are important to be a better human, really, and to relate better to other people.

And I also authored a book a year ago, about a year ago, during the pandemic, it’s called Becoming a Woman of Value: How to Thrive in Life and Love. Just being able to see people transform and own their value as I have after my divorce is the most gratifying thing.

Jodi: First and foremost, congratulations on launching your children so successfully into their lives! That is a tremendous accomplishment. And you have been on quite a personal odyssey these years.

It’s so fascinating that it’s led you to this point and that you reference back to your yearbook from high school as, as a catalyst to help you move forward. I love that. Uh, and that you have gotten to this place where you have really found that grounding oneself in their value is of the utmost importance in being successful in life.

Sandy: Well, thank you for acknowledging that launching children is an accomplishment because I honestly think that every, every relationship is important in our lives. You know, whether it’s our work relationships, our children, if we have them, our significant others, our family, all of them really are what makes up our lives and how we show up in one is usually how we show up in all of them.

And parenting for me was an opportunity to sort of change the legacy of how I was raised, which was. Feelings and needs. What are those? I don’t know….which is not to put my parents down. But most parents just had no idea how to honor or talk about feelings. It was more about like “Just get over it. Don’t think about that.” And a lot of fixing and a lot of yelling and mind reading and all the things that I wanted to change in my parenting and also in my coaching practice. Because we just don’t have the skills to communicate effectively, to know how to set boundaries around the things that really matter to us.

And so I…my kids have said to me, it’s pretty amazing that you came out the way you did from your family and that you were able to kind of rise up and that’s what I want for them. And it’s what I want for everybody.

Jodi: I hear you. I think that “the Greatest Generation” wasn’t really encouraged to be as expressive and to put things out there that were in their minds. You were just to forge forward and keep it to yourself and be tough and move forward. A survivalist mentality, perhaps. I’m not trying to psychoanalyze your family, but I think that there’s what you spoken about is something that a lot of people have experienced of a certain age with their grandparents or parents.

Sandy: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you put it so nicely.

Jodi: But we’re in a different time now.

Sandy: Yeah, we are. And you know, I still made mistakes. I was trying to figure it out, but one of the most pivotal things I think for me was reading a book called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and How to Listen So Kids Will Talk, because I never realized you have to actually listen to your kids that they should just respect you because you’re the mom. And the moment that I started to really empathize, and it was really the beginning of empathy for me.

I didn’t know anything about empathy. To change my relationship with my children, they felt heard, I felt respected. They felt respected. And years later, when I was a dating coach, I created a course called “How to Talk to Men So Men Will Listen and How to Listen So Men Will Talk.” So it was based on that book, but it was like, we don’t know how to talk to each other.

Jodi: Right, right. Well, empathy is a cornerstone of any relationship, isn’t it?

Sandy:  It sure is. And we’re so bad at it. Like we think we have to come in and fix and, and diminish somebody’s feelings so that they’ll just move on and get over it. I remember my very first retreat that I had. One of my members had to leave early because somebody she was so close to was put into hospice care. She was devastated. And so she flew back to LA from Connecticut to be with her family.

And all I was watching as the other women in the retreat, were trying to give her empathy and one of them said, um, “Oh, you’re going to be okay” or “Don’t worry about it.” Some were crying more than she was so that she was then taking care of them.

And I watched the whole thing because I’ve been in situations where people didn’t know what to say. And I thought it was a great opportunity, even though it was for dating and people were looking to go on their last first date, I said, “This is a really important skill and let’s talk about empathy and how do we give empathy?” And I said, “I know you were all trying to do your best, but let’s talk about how we can do better.”

And it was a great in the moment lesson on how to really sit with somebody, how to really just hold them where they are and not try to take it away or make it even worse. But we don’t have the skills to do it, and I think it’s just important for us to learn them.

Jodi: It’s not a typical thing to do, to step back from a moment in time that you’re experiencing and to assess it, especially in a group format like that. But this presented that opportunity for you and your retreat attendees, which I would presume was rather powerful for them when they reflected back on, on their actions, and their  behavior to help their fellow retreat participant move forward.

Sandy: I hope so. I hope it stayed with them because that was the intention was not, not to shame them because they didn’t do a right, but to really start to learn the skills that they need to take those forward into all their relationship.

Jodi: We need to learn skills when we are dating because dating requires practice and it requires one to be out there trying different things, being vulnerable, being engaged with, in conversation, with, and present with whoever it is you’re on a date with in different ways. Would you agree?

Sandy:  Yeah, for sure. There’s so many skills that we need to learn, and it’s amazing when you practice those how much better your relationships get and also just how much more empowered you feel when you’re dating, like you’re actually a choice and you get to look at somebody and decide how they would fit into your life. Not just, “I hope he picks me and oh my God, I’m so anxious on the date.”

You know, I used to date like that and now, and, I’m still single. And I’m going to talk about my date in a moment. But it’s such a different experience where I come in confidently, you know, just kind of not full of nerves, but to have a good time and to connect with a human being.

Jodi: I reached that point on my dating journey as well. For me, it was a, I guess, a combination of things coming together at a certain time in life. One was age, just being more mature, being more confident, having more, a lot of experience dating. (Laughter)

But also not requiring someone else to validate me…getting to that point of, as you were speaking about in your wonderful book, Becoming a Woman of Value, my own value in my own self-worth, which every woman, every person should strive to get to. And, it’s tough to stay there all the time because of just the challenges life will throw at you, but really to try to be grounded in that place.

So you’ve come on to talk about this date that you went on and you came to this date after a good amount of dating experience, right?

Sandy: Oh yeah.

Jodi: And I am excited to hear the story. So why don’t we get into it?

Sandy: So, we’re going to call this guy, “Liverpool Dude.”

Jodi: I love that! Liverpool Dude. I can be accent is just already in my head.

Sandy: Well, that’s what pulled me in as so many women who see that somebody from England or South Africa or Australia, and you’re like, “Ooh, I just want to hear what he sounds like.” So that was me.

He connected on Bumble with me and he was cute. And he was also 15 years younger, which was very flattering…that he said right away, “I’m attracted to your intelligence.” He seemed really bright and he paid attention to my profile. So he asked me questions. Like I have a two truths and a lie. My two truths and a lie where I can stand on my head, I Drive a stick shift and I wrote a New York times bestseller.

Jodi: That’s terrific! You can stand on your head?

Sandy: I can. (Laughter)

Jodi: They’re all impressive, but the first one….it’s all impressive, but wow! That’s remarkable! (Laughter)

Sandy: It’s just one of the skills. It’s like this thing I could do, like my whole life without really trying, but, um, yeah. And driving a stick shift is also a great conversation starter because I’ve always pretty much almost always driven a stick shift.

So this happened about a month ago during the pandemic and he seemed really cute and really attentive. And we got on a call pretty quickly. And of course, because I wanted to hear his Liverpool accent. He was a musician when he was younger. There were so many really intriguing things about him and you know, right away he said, “I don’t care that you’re 15 years older than I am.” I like people for who they are, not how old they are.

And I said, “Yeah, me too. I date people of all different types and ages and distances. I don’t care.” After that first call, I think we talked for like an hour and a half on the Bumble phone, so I hadn’t yet exchanged my number. And then we exchanged phone numbers and my son was in the other room and he said, “Mom, you spent an hour and a half on the phone on a first call. You’re breaking your own rules!” (Laughter)

Jodi: He’s keeping you honest. (Laughter)

Sandy: He does. And usually I don’t do it. It’s like, first of all, I usually don’t have a lot to say to somebody in an hour and a half on a first call, but we had so much to talk about. So I kind of went with the flow and he said, “You know, let’s talk again tomorrow.” And I didn’t hear from him the next day. But we had set a tentative date. So let’s say this was a Thursday night. We had set a tentative day for that Sunday.

I was waiting to hear confirmation about the date and I didn’t hear from him. And I was like, “Wow! We had such great conversation. I’m going to reach out to him.” And I don’t usually do that either, but there was something about him that intrigued me.

So I was tempted to reem him out (Laughter)….show him who’s a woman of value! And I actually talked to a friend who’s also a coach and I said, “Talk me off the ledge. And how do you feel about me sending him a text? And what would that text say?” So we kind of worked it out together and kept it very positive; kind of non-attached to the outcome. I just thought, we had a good connection. I don’t know what happened.

It was just a curious and kind of playful text and it was something like, “I really enjoyed our conversation the other night. I thought we were going to get together on Sunday and then crickets. And I’m just wondering if everything’s ok?”

And so he wrote back immediately and said, “I’m so sorry. My daughter needed me and I had to go into the city.” Okay. So he goes, “Can you talk later tonight?” And we talked again for a long time. And then we really made a date. So we were going to meet the following Sunday and we set up a time. And then we said, we would check in later in the week.

And he did check in with me again. I think we spoke Thursday night and he said, “You know, I live like two hours away, but it’s fine. I like driving. I’m in my car all the time and I’m thinking that’s great.” And then he asked me again, “Are you sure you’re okay dating somebody who’s 50?”

And I said “Of course.” And he said, “Well, you don’t look 65 and I think you’re attractive. And I’m looking forward to meeting you. I’ll call you when I’m on my way.”

And so we had booked a restaurant. We were going to meet for lunch. Sunday morning I didn’t hear from him. And I thought, “Okay, he’ll call me right as he’s getting in. And I’ll leave the house when I hear from him.”

About 20 minutes before we were supposed to meet, I decided to call him. And the phone went right to voicemail and I thought, “Okay, he could still be coming.” But I had a bad feeling about it. I actually….that morning, something told me in my gut that this date is not going to happen. And I was right. He stood me up! He blocked my number! He disconnected from me on Bumble and I was, as they say in Liverpool, I was gob smacked!

Jodi: Wow!

Sandy: Yeah, this had never happened to me before. Um, so I sat there in my living room and I was really proud of myself for not having gone to the restaurant because a lot of people just do that and they sit there and they feel really embarrassed that they waited. And I know you have a great story in your book about that. But she made it into a great date in the end with a girlfriend, with her girlfriend, which I thought was great.

And look, you can go to a restaurant and order yourself a meal and make the best of it too. But I sat at home for a few minutes and processed it and then I was like, “Okay, get yourself out of the house. Go take a walk. Go do something and just get out of this head space.” Cause I did not want to be wallowing in self-pity and anger and it was great.

I took a walk by the beach. I breathed in the salty beach air. I felt so much better and I stayed out for a while. And then I came home and you know what? I, because I had never met him, I was able to really process it pretty quickly. And I decided to share my story with my, my people, my audience. And I created a video because part of me was a little embarrassed that it happened to me. And then I said, “You know what? I’m human and I want to share that I go through what they go through.”

And it was one of my most popular videos. People really appreciated that I was vulnerable with them. And I shared some takeaways, which I think are really important. And I can share them if you’d like.

Jodi: Yes, but before you do and I absolutely want to delve into that, I just want to say “Bravo!” Bravo, because you’ve done something that isn’t comfortable for most people, which is to come forward and say “I was stood up.” And it takes a lot to do that and to put that forward because many people have been stood up, which is all wrong and is such a shame. But that usually isn’t really talked about.

And so you’re putting it forward to say, “Hey, this happens. And not only did it happen to me, but I’m going to help you” Now we’ll delve into that so that we can help listeners who have been where you were navigate through that experience more successfully and get back to feeling like they’re a woman of value. So, please share your advice.

Sandy: Okay! So this is for anybody who has been stood up…it hurts! It is painful, but you can do something about it. And when you have a plan of action, it’s empowering. Just like when I got up, got out of my house, it was empowering and it helped me to really heal quickly.

So the first thing I think is really important is to feel what you’re feeling. We tend to, and I do. Um, I tend to like stuff, the emotions out don’t be angry. Don’t be disappointed. Don’t be anything because that’s how I was raised. As I said before, you know, it’s just, just soldier on and soldiering on keeps those feelings in. It’s much quicker to go through the feelings because they come out the other side and they’re not going to stay with you. So take a few minutes and just figure out what emotions are coming up for you. Anger, embarrassment, disappointment, whatever it is, feel it. And then let it go.

Jodi: Let it out, don’t let it fester because it only does, does damage to your psyche.

Sandy: Yeah. And maybe you need to write it out. Maybe you need to call a friend and talk it out. But however you process, do it.

And the second thing that’s really important is not to ruminate on “the why.” We tend to focus on why did people do what they did to us. And we will probably never know why. Most of these things happen because….well, he blocked me, so I’m not going to find out because I’m not calling him. We can’t control people’s actions, but what we can control is our response.

And we also can ask ourselves better questions then why, which is, “Why would I want to date somebody who doesn’t respect me? Why would I want to date somebody who doesn’t have the decency to tell me the truth?”

So we ask ourselves these low value questions, like, “Why didn’t he do it?” and “Why would he do it to me?” and “Why me?” Those are questions that don’t help us. They don’t really have answers. So when you get out of self-blame and you go, hmm, why would I want to date someone like that? That’s a game changer.

Jodi: One of the trickiest parts of dating is not to take it personally, especially this early, at this early onstage, because it’s about the other person. It’s really not about you. They don’t know you.

Sandy: No, they don’t know me and for whatever sick reason, they wanted to have a lot of conversations with me and then not show up. I started doubting every part of the conversation. Like, was he even from Liverpool? (Laughter) I don’t know. And it was pretty hard to fake the accent for a couple of hours. I do believe that part.

So the next thing that’s important is to really take care of yourself. The best antidote to getting stood up or being rejected in any way is to love yourself more; to practice self-care.

So I did that by going to the beach and breathing in that delicious salty ocean air. I took a walk. I sat on a bench. Just do what makes you happy. Maybe want to meet a friend for coffee or a walk or journal. Like I said before, you might want to go get a manicure. So, you know, just kind of do something that keeps you feeling good about yourself.

Jodi: Take time for self-care.

Sandy: Yeah.

Jodi: That’s what you’re suggesting. Absolutely. That’s so important.

Sandy: Yeah. I think throughout the dating process, we need to practice self-care for sure. And along the same lines, positive affirmations are always good. So understand that one person’s actions don’t determine your self-worth.

You can say, or write things down that help you believe that you are worthy of love that you’re lovable, no matter what happens. And maybe it’s something like, “my heart is still open to love” or, “I’m making room for the right person to come into my life.” And you know, it’s like, it’s part of the journey. You also congratulate yourself for putting your heart out there.

I think a lot of people just don’t date. And so if you getting stood up, it means that you’re taking a risk and you’re getting out there and you’ve made a connection and that you still do believe in love. So I think that’s super important is to just kind of pat yourself on the back and say, “I’m out there. I’m doing it. It’s part of the journey.”

Jodi: It is. And we always should acknowledge that we’re making an effort. We’re taking risks because we believe that we are worthy of love and that we have love to give that lucky person who gets to receive it if we meet that person one day.

Sandy: Yeah, definitely. And the last thing that I want to share is that this is an experience to learn from. When I work with a client, we debrief every date so that it’s always a learning experience. I have my dates look at three things they liked about a person. If they’re actually on a date, two things that were yellow or red flags, and three things they thought they did really well on the date that they’re proud of and two things they might want to do differently the next time. We’re always looking at what worked, what are some signs that we might’ve missed and what can we do better. And so I think it’s really important to debrief what happened.

I was able to look at my interactions with Liverpool Dude and I realized that his words and actions did not match from the beginning. He didn’t call when he said he would. He didn’t follow up on that date like he said he would. At one point, he said…he had sent me some music that he had recorded when he was younger in Liverpool….and he texted that to me once we had exchanged numbers.

I asked him a simple question, like, “What part did you play in the band?” It took him four days to answer! And then he made up an excuse and said he lost his phone and “I’m so embarrassed and I’m such a proper twat that I didn’t call you.” So of course saying proper twat makes it sound so cute. (Laughter)

Jodi: Yes. Especially for us American women!

Sandy:  Yes, that’s right. So, you know, it’s apologies and “Oh, God, I’m so sorry.” And so we have to stop excusing the inexcusable. And I also spoke way too much on the phone before meeting. I almost never, ever, ever do that.

I had an experience early on in dating where I talked to a guy so many days in a row before meeting that the meeting itself, that the date itself was horrific. We had like no connection. But I had built him into this amazing person because of a phone connection.

So we tend to do this. We are so yearning for connection and we finally find somebody who’s interesting and seems interested and we want it to work so badly that we overlook red flags, yellow flags. And I was flattered. I was flattered that a younger man wanted to date me and you know, all these things that I just learned from, and I won’t do them again.

So if you’re looking honestly, at some of the things that you might have missed and some things that you might’ve excused, just do it differently next time and follow through on your commitment to be true to yourself and true to your values and to your standards.

Jodi: These are priceless pearls of wisdom that you garnered from this unfortunate date of being stood up, that you have just shared with me and listeners. Thank you Sandy. Really. Thank you for coming on the show to, to shine a light on an incident, an experience, that too many people have, and that really isn’t talked about much in any sort of open forum. So this is really helpful, I know, for people who are listening.

And what also will be helpful for our listeners is for them to get your book, Becoming a Woman of Value: How to Thrive in Life and Love. I have read it. I loved it. It is filled with actionable advice and you’ve got those 30 steps in it based on the three pillars you’ve already discussed with us. And you’ve got wonderful stories woven into it. And honestly, I was nodding my head as I read it. It was just, “yes, yes, yes” as I went through the book. So I really recommend that listeners get it. Could you please share where they can get your book and also how they can get in touch with you to follow up as potentially a client?

Sandy: Sure. Well, thank you for that lovely review of my book. It’s a labor of love. You can find my book on Amazon and you can find me at LastFirstDate.com. That’s where you’ll find all my coaching services, my blog, my podcast is there.

My podcast is called “Last First Date Radio,” and that’s wherever you listen to podcasts, it’s everywhere. We’re in our ninth year and almost 500 episodes. Make sure to check out my episode with Jodi, we had a fantastic discussion and I really loved our conversation.

Jodi: Me too! Thank you for having me on your show. It was great.

Sandy: You’re welcome. It was fantastic. So, yeah, that’s where I am. I’m also at TheWomanofValue.com. So if you’re interested in not dating, but finding your value in other ways, I also have a podcast there and you can find it there and a blog and a whole bunch of other things.

I also have a Facebook group that is for single women over 40. We do have women in relationships and women who are married, who started out single in the group, and got married and are sharing their experiences.

It’s a fantastic group. I have seven monitors who keep this group safe and sane, and we have just really beautiful discussions about how to grow on your journey to lasting love. And you can find that at “Your Last First Date” on Facebook.

Jodi: You’ve created an incredibly rich and meaningful and helpful portfolio of services and resources and expertise for women to help them achieve their value and to find the partner they’re seeking. I will share all of the information–all the links for how people can get in touch with you–in the show notes for this episode.

Thank you, Sandy, for this conversation and for all of the value you bring to the world.

Sandy: Ahh, thank you, Jodi. We are so aligned in how we see the world and it’s always great talking to you.

Image by Maxpinsoo from Pixabay.

The post Sandy and the Liverpool Dude appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Welcome Carolyn! Thanks for coming on the podcast this episode.

Carolyn: Well, thank you, Jodi. I’m so honored to be on your podcast.

Jodi: It is terrific to have you here and I’m looking forward to the conversation that we’re going to have because this one is going to be unlike any other podcast episode that I have recorded to date.

You’ve come on the podcast to do something that a guest has never done before. Most guests come on and we delve into one date. I’ve had a few guests come on and talk about two dates, but you, Carolyn, you are going to be the first guest to take us through and talk about more than two dates because you went on 50 first dates!

Carolyn: Yup. Yes I did.

Jodi: That is impressive!

Carolyn: And I’m just happy to be here to, to, to share what I learned from them. I mean, you, you helped so many women on their first dates and I’m so impressed with that. And I hope I can just contribute because I learned a lot from my 50.

Jodi: Well, that is really sweet of you. And I know you’re going to contribute. You are already doing so in many ways, but we’ll get to that in a, in a little bit. Now, the idea of going on 50 first dates might excite some of our listeners, but it also might recoil others. Right? (Laughter) That’s a lot of first dates to go on. Why did you decide to go on 50 first dates and how did you go about it?

Carolyn: Well, there were a couple of reasons. One is, I was in in my late fifties and I’d broken up with a man. We had different life goals. We had to break up, but we still loved each other. And I was afraid I was going to look for someone just like him, because I liked that type. And so I realized I needed to expand my type of man that I was looking for. I really wanted to find a long-term committed partner. But I also wanted to avoid things that had happened when I had dated before, which is sometimes settling for a person who’s just, okay, not really great. Or getting really hurt by one person and stopping dating and not getting too discouraged or and, or being too picky about who I wanted and not going out with anybody.

So I was trying to avoid all that and luckily I’m a researcher. And so I thought, how can I approach this differently? And I thought I should go out with a lot of men in order to figure out what type I would like. And then that movie “50 First Dates” came to mind. And of course she went out with 50 dates with the same man because she had amnesia. But it gave me an idea that 50 would be a great number to go out with and, and explore different types of men.

And the other side of that was, as a researcher, I decided to look at dating more as research, like a research. It was research into what type of man and relationship that I would like. So I felt like I was about to embark on dating types of people, not necessarily individuals. And I was hoping that would all make it more interesting to me as a researcher, make it more successful, and avoid those things that I had done before when I got discouraged with dating.

Jodi: You come with a really, a truly unique background, because most people come into dating with a profession, but not a profession that will help them learn about dating and evaluate their experience. So, given this, what came out of your recent project. Share with us what the results were.

Carolyn: Well, I was very pleasantly surprised how it worked out, because I don’t think I could have predicted this. First of all, having a goal provided a lot of positive and optimistic momentum to the dating. I felt like I was going towards my partner he was far away, but I had a lot of things to do in between, and it was, and I could enjoy the journey more than, than just the destination.

What happened was, each date — since I knew I was going to go on 50 and I was committed to doing that, although of course I realized if I found my guy right before and I was sure I would stop, but I was mainly going for 50 — each date didn’t have as much weight. It didn’t matter as much if each date worked out or not with if I liked him or he liked me. I could be more objective. I could be more curious like, “How was I with him? How was he with me? How did we, how were we both will this, will this work? Should I go on a second date?” And it was just lighter.

So I really enjoyed myself. I can enjoy myself with the men. I had more fun with them. I also, I could, if I got rejected, which I did actually a lot I could move on easily. In fact, I went through this entire project feeling like it was a fun project. And then when I looked back, I realized I’d actually been rejected a lot. And I hadn’t even noticed it hardly because I kept that momentum. So it worked to have that goal for me.

Also, because I was trying to cast my net widely for different types of men, each man I went out, didn’t have to be a potential partner. They just had to be someone I liked who I wanted to explore, like “hmm, a businessman” or “hmm, an artist” or a musician or someone who likes the beach or someone who does, who hike a hiker. I was looking for different types.

And also didn’t have a list. I didn’t start out with a list of things I wanted. I was doing the type of research that would be called exploratory.

I was open to what I found. I was taking in a lot of data about different types of men and seeing what I liked and what I didn’t. And I was slowly developing a list, but way farther along the line, not in the beginning. That’s just some of the benefits that I got.

Jodi: It’s a lot of benefits! You got a lot of benefits. You had the healthiest perspective going into this project. I love that you looked at the big picture and, Carolyn, that you always believed that he was out there. How is it that you always believed that he was out there? Where did that belief come from?

Carolyn: I think I just had faith in this project. You know, the other thing about 50. I’m a statistician and the number 50 is actually what you need in a sample size to get significant results. So I kind of trusted that, that would, that 50 would be enough to bring me at least a conclusion of what type of person I wanted. I just thought that that would work.

But I also, I wasn’t counting on it. I mean, if I had gotten to 50 and hadn’t found somebody, I was going to do it again. Because I was enjoying myself so much. I guess in answer to your question is, I do have a naturally optimistic nature from my parents. And so I that’s where I go. And that’s probably kept me going a lot too.

Jodi: Your optimism combined with your statistician know-how gave you the impetus, the drive, and the belief that this project was one that made sense, that you could execute on, that you could enjoy, that you could continue on and that would result in you finding your person.

Carolyn: And it did! And it did!

Jodi: Wow!

Carolyn: I wanted to make that point. Yes. Yeah. I actually found it before I got to 50, so I was pleased.

Jodi: So you found him and we are going to get to that because I want to hear about that. But first let’s talk about the big picture. Let’s talk about this project and we don’t have time to delve into all 50 dates because that’s a big number, but the good news is that you have a new memoir that’s just been published and it’s titled “Fifty First Dates after Fifty.”

Carolyn: Right.

Jodi: And so the reader who reads this book accompanies you through this entire odyssey. And I know this because I’ve read your book. And so I was able to accompany you through this odyssey and it was a really fascinating, inspiring, and really interesting one.

Carolyn: Great! I’m glad you liked it.

Jodi: Absolutely! So instead, let’s highlight, let’s say three of your most memorable dates. So can you take us through, let’s say the first one and help us understand what about it made it significant?

Carolyn: Yeah, there are several of these dates. And by the way, I just want to say in the book, I only highlight really around 20 of the dates. I take people through those 20 and just mentioned the other 50, so they don’t have to actually slog through all 50 of the dates.

But these are the ones that really stood out. And this, this one I’m going to talk about was about the midway of the project. It wasn’t an online date. I had met him on Match.com. And I didn’t get many answers to my Match.com because I was very specific about what I wanted. So this guy matched me pretty well, and we had friends in common.

So for our first date, he asked me if I wanted to have dinner at his house and I accepted. And then I had second thoughts. I thought still, I don’t know this guy very well. And mainly, I don’t know if I want to invest a whole evening at somebody’s house, actually an hour from my house, until I know them a little better. So I suggested that we have a date. And we lived an hour apart. So I thought of a place that we could go halfway between our houses. It was a marina and it would be a nice place for a walking date.

And the reason I like this date is this an example of me taking care of myself. You know, dating’s a long-term project and you have to really take care of your own heart. And I didn’t want my heart to be off in some guy’s house and find out, maybe we didn’t like each other. He didn’t like me. I was really taking care of myself by insisting on a pre-date.

And he agreed to it. He was very cute. He said, “Sell, I hope I pass the test.” (Laughter) So it was very cute. So we, we had the walk and it was a very sweet walk and I wasn’t as attracted to him as I thought I would be. I liked him and he, we had a great conversation and I was willing to take a chance on a second date.

And so I was looking forward to it the next day before the date, the date was a couple of days later, he called me at my house and said, “Can I tell you something?” And I was about to have some friends over for the evening. He knew that he said, “I want to tell you something before your friends come.” And he said, “I don’t think I can have a day with you. I don’t think we’re a match.”

And I was so disappointed because that predate was for me to tell them, to find out about whether he was okay for me. And whether I felt comfortable with him, it wasn’t for him to reject me. I was so shocked and hurt and my heart was hurt because my heart had started opening up to him a little.

And so here’s what I did. That is one of the things I did. One of the best things I did, it was self-care is. I I had a little dialogue with my heart. I just turned to my heart and said, She said, really, “How did this happen?” I said, “I know we were supposed to have a pre-date. It was supposed to be for us.”

And, I just had this conversation that was reassuring my heart and telling her that I loved her and how proud I was that she kept open, open heart to people. And then I was trying to protect her by having a predate. And she said, she appreciated me doing that. And it was just very healing between us to get in, get in sync with my heart and let her know I was really trying to protect her. And I was hurt, sad too.

And I felt her feeling protected by me and cared for by me so that it was just a good example of, I was trying to take care of us. It didn’t work out the way I thought, but I salvaged it by talking to my heart.

Jodi: Dating is a series of being rejected or rejecting someone at some point until you get to that person. This technique that you used is one that we all could benefit from because we all need to protect our hearts along the way. How do you actually go about that? Are you having that interaction with your heart through meditation or in another way?

Carolyn: I was preparing dinner for my friends. And, and so I was just talking out loud to my heart. I just said out loud, “I’m so sorry.” I actually, my friends were about to come, so I thought I would, they would hug me and comfort me, but then my heart kind of cried out. I thought that we were protected. And so I just started talking to her out loud and I heard her talking to me. It’s more of an internal dialogue, but that I think I say stuff out loud to her.

Jodi: This experience, which caught you completely by surprise, because as you said, you were the one who was doing the deciding there, not him! He turned the tables on you, but it all worked out for you.

How did that strengthen and improve your journey throughout the dates to come? Because as you said earlier, you looked back and you realized you were rejected. I say that, you know, more than you were the one doing the rejecting. Did that strengthen your resolve and your heart for the dates?

Carolyn: Well, you know you know, as well as I, that in order to date, you have to have some resilience for things like this. And so I think w what it did is it comforted me that I had a way to be resilient, that I had a way to take care of my heart. I felt comforted that I, I could comfort myself. I could ask for help from my friends who were about to arrive to comfort me and I got over it pretty fast and seeing that made me want to go on.

And also we have, when we did, we have to respect what the other person wants too. He said, I wasn’t a match for him. Well, I can’t argue with that. I have to respect that. And so I wouldn’t have wanted him as a match. So, he saved us both some time.

Jodi: He did you a favor.

Carolyn: Right, right.

Jodi: Your time is precious. You didn’t need to spend that evening with him because it wouldn’t have ended up getting you to the results that you were after. So, and my observation, and from all my years of dating and the thing that so many people find so challenging is that you can’t take this personally when someone you don’t know, you’ve just had a walk with, comes back to you and says, I don’t think we’re a match.

We can’t really take that personally deep down for a long time because that person is just getting an initial sense of us and really doesn’t know us and..do you agree?

Carolyn: Yes. Oh definitely. Not taking things personally is a huge is a huge perspective that you have to take when dating it. It can’t be. It’s not about you. It’s not about you. It’s about them.

Jodi: Right. And yet it feels so much about you.

Carolyn: Yes, it is related. It is related, but I just kept coming back to, “well, if he thought we weren’t a match and I didn’t,”… I wasn’t sure we were a match. I was just willing to give it another try. It’s good that somebody was clear, I guess, especially since I wanted to move on, I was going to move on.

Jodi: Exactly. And it was fortunate that you had these friends coming over that night. Yes. Yes. Okay. So another thing here, another element here, is to have a support system, whether it’s one person or a group of people.

Carolyn: Definitely, definitely. That’s one of the things I noticed about my project. I kind of had a support system. It’s a long-term project, whether you’re going on 50 or 10 dates, or going until you find your person. It’s long-term and you have to build in support, whether that’s a core group of friends or a group or a therapist or a therapy group, or a personal relationship workshop group, which is what I have. Everything helps.

Jodi: Everything helps. All right, well, let’s now move into the second date. That was memorable from your 50 first date journey. Please share with us what happened on this second date.

Carolyn: Well, this date was also around in the middle of my dating project. And I call this the Magical Date because it was just the whole aura of it was magical. And it was the result of me casting my net wide to be with different types that I might not have been with.

I met this guy on a Sierra Club hike, which is, which is a type I would like, but he was shorter than me. And I had this prejudice that I only could be with men who were taller than me. But he was so kind and nice and personable that I decided to see what it would be like to date him and see if I could overcome my short prejudice.

We went on a few dates and we had a wonderful time dancing and having dinners. And I think this was our fourth date and he invited me to his house. I trusted him and he had beautiful music playing. He was a white guy who, who danced African music. African dances. And he had all these masks and objects from Africa in his house and played world music in front of the fire. It was just beautiful and luscious to be there.

And then he took me hiking behind his house. And this was February, it was kind of drizzling. I was a little wondering what he was doing. He said, “Come, please follow me up this path.” And we went up this path on the hill, behind his house, and I was really skeptical because I was getting cold.

And then all of a sudden I saw this little magical hut on the side of the. And it was a little hut glowing with candle light and some music was playing out of it, some very ephemeral, angelic music. And it was like really a scene out of “Lord of the Rings,” those tiny little houses on the side of the hill. And it felt like that. And we went into the little hot and we looked down, we were way above his house and it was just very cozy. He set it up with pillows. We just sat there and actually just looked at him. We were just gazed. We just felt happy. And he just…it was just very sweet.

You know, I would not have had that experience if I was, had not cast my net wide and been willing to go out with people I might not like. And in the end I actually could not overcome the short thing. I couldn’t do it. And, he didn’t feel very good about that. And neither did I. But we had some sweet times that I wouldn’t have given up for anything. It was just a great thing to experience.

Jodi: So, this is an example of a date that enriched you personally because of the goodness that you felt and the spiritual connection of sorts that you experienced in that location, in that magical hut?

Carolyn: Yeah, he had created magic there. He had created this environment that was just out of this world. And I would never guess that about him. I thought he was a hiker. I thought he was interesting, but a dancer, but I didn’t know he’d do this. People have gifts inside them that we can experience if we’re open to it and those gifts are part of living and having a full life, and this is an experience that I’m so glad I had, even if I didn’t see him very many times after that. It was just so precious.

Jodi: He surprised you in a way that you hadn’t expected and it helped you learn to think more broadly about people who you meet and what they might be, who they might be, how they might be? Is that…yeah.

Carolyn: Well, it, it, it definitely confirmed that everybody, not everyone, but most people have something to offer. And even though I could not overcome my prejudice against short men and I wanted someone tall still….of course, I could be friends with people who are different too. So it reminded me that there are all sorts of people who can surprise you.

Jodi: That sounds like it did help enhance your view of people to come and open your mind even further. Let’s transition now to talk about a third date that you went on.

Carolyn: Okay, well, this is the day I call it the “Date of Balance.” I was on a date with a very high energy younger man. And we, and he was accompanied me to a New Year’s Eve party, which was itself, very high energy. It was a big house full of people, dancing and socializing and being out on the deck eating and drinking, and we both knew people there. And so we went in and we were both wearing these very glimmery shiny outfits. And we kind of matched in our energy. That’s why I liked going out with him, wanted to go out with him. And so we were very well aligned.

But since we knew other people we each wanted to go say hi to our friends. So we agreed, “Well, let’s go mingle a little bit and then get back together.” So we did that throughout the evening. We mingled with other people. We said, hello to our friends, hung out with them. And then we got back together and we danced together or we just talk together with other people. And then we went apart again.

And what I loved about it is that’s the kind of balance I was looking for in a partnership. I’m someone who spends a lot of time alone. I need time alone. And I also like to be with people and I really want both. And I really saw in that party a model for what I wanted in a partner. And that it should be possible. I really could feel it in my bones. And some of my dates were like this in it was a model for the type of partner I wanted and I wanted to feel it in my body to experience it. So that, and I, and I do believe that it’s what I then was able to recognize and maybe attract in a partner to have this because this type of balance at a party, much later when I found my partner and much later when we were going to parties, we did the same thing. It was exactly that. What I had imagined was possible. That’s what we did.

Jodi: You were sort of painting a portrait in a way of the person and all the characteristics and the interactions that you were looking to meet and be with. And this modeling of this coming together and stepping apart in social situations is something that you realized was so important for you.

Carolyn: Right. Right. And not everyone does that. And not everybody likes that. Some people like to cling, cling, cling, and some people like to ignore the whole time. (Laughter) So to have that balance was really precious and what I knew, what I wanted modeled, what I wanted.

Jodi: This modeling of the type of relationship that you. Wanted, ultimately to be a part of ended up leading you to that person. Please share some details about how you found this person.

Carolyn: Well, first of all, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t have noticed him if I had seen him earlier in this project. He actually was part of my large friendship, not friendship group, but acquaintance group, in our community, but I hadn’t really noticed him.

And I just started noticing him towards the end. And there was something about his energy, his brightness, his optimism, he’s smart. I was at a party once and he made a really, really smart comment. And I looked at him, I thought, Oh my God, this is the type of person I should be with. And I just, it kind of all came together when I started seeing him, but it was later in the project.

I still, for some reasons, was not sure I wanted to take a chance on him. Cause I was pretty serious towards the end. I was really wanting to be with people who I was pretty sure were available to be partners and we’re kind of what I wanted. And I was still not sure about him. But then we decided to go on a date and the date that we picked was an incredible date.

We talk about first dates and you do one thing or the other, well, we had a day long date in which we did three things and each of the things reflected an aspect of ourselves that we’ve ended up sharing from that on, The first thing we did is we went for a bike ride. He showed up with his bicycle and we went biking in a beautiful place near my house.

Then we had, we coincidentally, we had a, a friend who had died and it was her Memorial Service was that day. So we went and we’re with our friends in this kind of grieving time. We kind of were witness to our friend’s grief and our grief and showed that together. And then the third thing was, we were planning to go an Oscar party. Another friend had the Oscars where that night we were going to go to a party at her house. But in the meantime, we stopped at my house. And I was just full of feelings. I was feeling was full of feelings about the person who died. She was so much like me.

I thought it could have been me. I was still, I had just seen the person I broke up with so long ago, but I was still feeling sad about him. I was scared about how much I was feeling for the person that I was starting to see. And I just started crying and he just held me. Nothing more, just, just held me and just showed me what a presence he could be with me and how safe it was and how gentle he was.

And I just cried and he understood. And then we went off to the Oscar party and just helped hands. And that was the date. Then he went home. And it imprinted on us that those three things that we still do together. We do some exercise. We do some joyful playing with friends and then some sort of deep work, not a Memorial service, but we do our own work. And so it was about a balance of its own type.

Jodi: Most days are not days like the one that you and he experienced together, you really experienced an odyssey of emotions that day.

Carolyn: Right! Exactly, exactly!

Jodi: And he was able to be by your side, through all of it in a way that was very comfortable.

Carolyn: Right. And, and I had expressed emotions with other dates also, but this was just a much wider spectrum. He was touching me on so many more levels than anyone else had. And I realized how aligned he was with me and I with him.

Jodi: The behaviors, the criteria that you were seeking in your partner, were you, maybe not in the moment, but after that day, just running through them and saying check, check, check?

Carolyn: Yes, I was, I was. But I was also a little wary. I was also wary, I by then I was thinking I just wanted to wait and see, I wasn’t going to be jumping in and saying, “This is it.” Even though I kind of felt like it, but I was also going to say, well, let’s see how this works out. I was a wait and see kind of a feeling. He was matching a lot of the things and that was wonderful. And he was, I should be honest, he was matching enough that I didn’t want to go on any more dates.

Jodi: But he wasn’t your 50^th, so….

Carolyn: No he was not my 50th. Yes. So that’s a story. I think that’s part of the story.

Jodi: But he was close to your 50th, but  he was not your 50th first date.

Carolyn: Right.

Jodi: So you weren’t entirely sure, perhaps we would say. Right, now this project that you put together, which is really extraordinary, how long did it take?

Carolyn: It was two and a half years.

Jodi: Two and a half years!

Carolyn: I thought it would go faster. My goal was seven months,

Jodi: Oh boy!

Carolyn: …but I hadn’t done the math about how many days that would mean a week. (Laughter) And I had a full-time job. I mean, that was not practical.

Jodi: Right, right. Do you recommend that other women, the women listening to us right now, follow your lead and also embark on this a 50 date…?

Carolyn: Well only if it resonates with them, I would say yes. If it sounds like something fun. I mean, the reason it worked for me is because I’m kind of quantitative and I like goals. I’m motivated by goals and that made it fun for me and made me move forward. But someone else, may like another type of goal, like maybe dating for a certain time, amount of time, like maybe half a year or a year, and then take a break or something else might work better.

I would say, whatever people can do that makes dating enjoyable and not a chore and not scary. And my book is I have it’s full of different approaches to dating, and I kind of hope that readers see it as a smorgasbord of ideas and just pick the ones that work for them, because it’s all about keeping motivated for ourselves.

Like for some people, just seeing dating as research might be enough of a fresh approach. Like just to say, “Oh, that that might change the lens that you see a date from, and that might help.” We’re all so different in what motivates us and what makes us go and keep going. As you know, dating is a question of persistence. What can you do that will keep you going?

Jodi: Persistence and resilience.

Carolyn: Yes, exactly.

Jodi: And a desire to find love.

Carolyn: Yeah, yes a big motivation. There’s the motivation. But then that sometimes gets lost and dating feels like a slog. And so what can we do to make it feel more fun and interesting?

Jodi: Exactly. I remember as I got further into dating and into midlife dating for me, it became at least the first dates, an opportunity to learn something. I walked into that restaurant, that cafe showed up to ride that bike, whatever it was, thinking that I will hopefully come away with a nugget, something new….a fact that I didn’t know learn about a specialty I knew nothing about maybe removing recommendations at a minimum. Like something, or a good story at a minimum at a minimum! And then if it exceeded that, it’s only goodness.

Carolyn: Yes. Yes. That’s the perfect attitude to go in with that. There’s something there.

Jodi: Well, you went to a lot of dates and you spent time with a lot of different men. So, you clearly learned a lot about them. But more importantly for you, you learned about yourself. I’m curious, what most surprised you about what you learned about you?

Carolyn: Well, let’s see. I knew that I wanted a partner and I knew that I was optimistic and that I could make this project fun. But what I was surprised at was, halfway through I felt like I had, I had gone over from the side of dating to find a partner to, I’m just dating and this is my life. And it became my life in an enjoyable way. I felt like I was in kind of a groove. Like this is how I live. I’m with my friends and I date and I go to parties and I go to retreats. And It’s a full life.

And I had that and I, I really loved having that feeling. That that was one of the happiest times in this whole project, when I realized I was actually perfectly happy being single, that dating was fun and that it could go on and on, and I was fine with that.

Jodi: It’s a full life. I love that Carolyn, that you landed there. It’s a full life that is tremendous. Tremendous.

You started this project because you broke up with someone listeners have been there and possibly some listeners have just broken up with people. What advice do you have for them when you look back on you at that moment in time?

Carolyn: Well, first of all, I do think it is important to grieve if you’ve just broken up with someone and, and lost someone that you dearly love for whatever reason. And however you can do to do that. I happened to be a songwriter at the time. So I took some songwriting classes and wrote sad songs about my lover leaving and everything, and it really helped.

Jodi: That’s great.

Carolyn: And then when, and then suddenly then after a couple of weeks, I wrote a happy song and I realized, oh, maybe I’m ready to date now. And so I really feel like there’s a grieving. I wanted to acknowledge that there is a grieving process.

The other thing is if you’re going to start dating remember that it’s a long-term project and build in loving support for it, for you. Create your life the way you want to live with or without a partner, which for me was surrounding myself with good friends. I had a women’s group that I met with regularly. I had a co-ed group that we met for dinner once a month. I was part of a large community of people who had gone through personal growth relationships who gave a lot, who were very supportive and gave a lot of, had parties and gave a lot of support to each other.

And then I did things I love to do, like go hiking and go to spiritual retreat centers. I didn’t get isolated. That that would be the hard thing to just be by yourself and trying to date, because then it’s easy to get into that situation of feeling discouraged and putting a lot of weight on each date to take you out of your isolation.

So I just think that it’s part of self-care. I mean, it’s just taking care of yourself and doing the things you love in your life so that you’re loving yourself. It all comes back to loving yourself really. And what can you can do to do that, with or without a partner?

Jodi: It does. It comes down to love of the most important person in your life, which is you.

Carolyn: Yeah

Jodi: For each of us.

Carolyn: And I know that your book has a lot of that and believes that too, that you need to be starting with loving yourself in a place of fullness and that you have a lot of advice about holding onto that as your date too.

Jodi: We can only show up as our true selves, if we are. Aware of who we are, we are authentic. And that only happens if we take the time to accept and embrace ourselves. And that is one of the most important steps towards actually finding that lifelong loving partner.

Carolyn: You don’t have to do it alone. I mean, I don’t, I’m not someone who says you can sit around and feel and love yourself by yourself. I have done it in reflection of people who reflect back to me, my best self and my love of me. That’s how I’ve learned it.

Jodi: By bringing people into your life who become good friends?

Carolyn: Yes, yes! People who are good friends who are loving friends. Yes. I mean, I learned, I had a whole new set of friends when I started going to personal growth workshops, which are all about learning to love yourself and love other people.

And so I was in a whole community of people who were trying to be more loving and that’s exactly….I really do recommend that approach that too. I feel like you need more loving people in your life, go to workshops in which they’re teaching that.

Jodi: You spoke about not isolating yourself. And yet here we are coming out of a period of time where we were all isolated and people who were living alone were especially isolated. And that has added so many challenges on so many levels. Thankfully things are getting better and parts of the country increasingly so, but we still have that challenge out there.

Carolyn: We do. We do. And know that people figured out ways to connect online for dating. I mean actually Zoom dating. There’ve been people who have been creative, very creative and taking walks out a lot of walks outside. The workshops that I was part of were online for the whole pandemic, but recently they’ve been in person because they’ve been able to require vaccinations and a lot of testing and made it really safe.

So I think things are opening up in different pockets. And so it’s possible. I mean, this is a great time to be thinking of starting to date because there are lots of there beginning to be more options.

Jodi: Exactly. It’s a great time to step up one’s dating activity and your book, Fifty First Dates After 50: A Memoir is a terrific companion as any of our listeners, any woman in midlife anywhere, steps forward to be out there. Where can listeners get your book and also where can listeners, and how can listeners, get in touch with you?

Carolyn: Well the book can be ordered anywhere that books are sold. It’s starting with Amazon and every bookstore should be able to order it. My website has links to all the usual options and to independent bookstores, which we really need to support now, because they’re the ones who support diverse books.

So my website is CarolynLeeArnold.com. And you can just go to the page that says “Where to Buy” and there’s options for buying the book. Also on my pages are links to my Facebook author page, and my Instagram account, and my email to contact me. They’re all there.

Jodi: And that’s Carolyn Lee, spelt “L E E.”

Carolyn: Right? Right. And I have an offer on my website. If you go to my website and sign up for my blog, which consists of a lot of dating tips and things about being brave and being women in the world right now, I will send my detailed dating tips to you.

I have the 10 dating tips on my website. I have the detailed ones as a gift to send if you sign up for my blog.

Jodi: Okay, that sounds fantastic! And we are going to link to all of that in the show notes for this episode.

Carolyn: Great.

Jodi: Thank you Carolyn, for being my guest. Thank you for taking us through the. And some of the lower lights of this odyssey, that was your 50 first date project. It has been a lot of fun to speak with you.

Carolyn: Thank you, Jodi. Thanks for the great questions. It was very fun to be here. I really appreciated talking with you about it.

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The following is the transcript for this podcast episode.:

Jodi: My guest this episode is love and relationship expert Macy Matarazzo. A girl of the ’70s, success for Macy was climbing the corporate ladder saying “I don’t need a man”, but wanting Prince Charming anyway. Then finding herself in her forties, alone, convinced that if love hasn’t just happened, she’s unlovable.

That’s when she stopped winging it. And instead decided to do whatever it takes to figure out love before long. She married Larry, the perfect match as she shared her story. Others found love too. So she quit her six-figure gig to help singles all over the world find “the one” using her SuperLOVED System. Macy, welcome to the program I am thrilled to have you join me today.

Macy: I am so thrilled to be here too.

Jodi: It’s going to be fun to delve into all that you have to share about love and relationships. Now, speaking of sharing you and I share a common backstory in the fact that we’re both what I like to refer to as “Seasoned Daters,” people who have been single later or longer than they had expected to or wanted. After you had that aha moment in your forties, how did you go about figuring out how to find love?

Macy: That’s a good question, because it really was, like you said, an “aha moment” where I recognized that what I had been doing up until that point was not working. So in that moment, I remember making this declaration of: “I am going to do whatever it takes.” And in doing that, it required some resources. So I actually engaged in hiring someone to help me. They were a life coach, not necessarily a specific relationship coach, but helped me really get to some of the core patterns and habits and beliefs that were not helping me actually receive the kind of relationship that was a good match for me. That was part of it.

Jodi: What did you do with the information that you learned about yourself?

Macy: It really was an actual commitment to myself. I mean, it was daily practices. It was staying focused on what it is I wanted to create. It was engaging in communities that were fun for me, where I could meet people. It was committing to dating in a way that also was different than I was doing before, because before I found it to be kind of miserable and exhausting, and it was having a new perspective and strategy in the way that I even navigated dating, that made it actually fun and light for me.

Jodi: You had a perspective that so many other women have at one point, that dating is miserable and exhausting. But you got past that and you were able to forge a different path. So where did you take that and how did you get to Larry?

Macy: It’s actually interesting because one of the things that I recognize that I did that made it even more fun for me, which it’s not going to necessarily sound fun in the words, is that I treated it almost like “the business of dating.” I was really organized and structured in meeting people and committing to a certain quality. So, whereas before I was quite open to the idea of, “oh, well, let me give them a chance, let me see what’s there,” or will they like me? So maybe there’s something that I can get from this.

And I stopped doing those things. I said, okay, I’m going to do a five-star system. And if they don’t meet like four or five, then it’s probably not going to be something I’m going to pursue even further. And it felt very clear to me and it was helpful and it really helped me to manage the energy of dating.

Jodi: It completely makes sense that you approached it as the business of dating because you come from a business background. Right?

Macy: Right.

Jodi: And I know that many of our listeners are business women. So to tackle dating as a job with a lot of structure around it, for many people might seem logical if they think about it, but they may not approach dating that way at the outset. So around your “aha moment,” you kind of got it that you needed to switch around the way you were thinking and take it to the way you approached your work life.

Now, this five-star system is really provocative. Tell, tell us more about the five-star system and whether you have taken that system and built it into your broader, SuperLOVED System that you offer and provide to clients.

Macy: I absolutely do. And I would say in the scheme of the SuperLOVED System, it’s kind of a smaller star in the dating phase of creating a relationship. But the five-star system is what helped me keep on track. So I mentioned that if it wasn’t a four or a five, then it might not be  worth pursuing, although I will say a 3 typically meant that there was more that I wanted to know. So one and two meant that there just wasn’t anything that’s inviting me back. There wasn’t any curiosity or I felt bored or wasn’t fun, or that if I imagined going on another date, I sensed a heaviness or a dread. So it was ensuring that I didn’t get seduced by the mind of, “Oh, well, what if though, what if you need to give them a chance” and all of the things that tended to really drain my energy in the past.

Because if I can compare it to where I was before I was really gung ho and I would go out with a whole bunch of people and I wasn’t really clear on my own values. I would be open to anyone who seemed interested just to give them a chance. And what I noticed would happen over and over again is I would feel so burned out in a couple of weeks or discouraged that then I would throw in the towel for a couple months.

So my whole plan with the five-star system was to take care of my energy and to give myself this experience of choosing and being willing to have a higher bar before I would give anyone my time.

Jodi: You’re saying that as part of this Five-Star System and your broader approach, that you were also injecting self-care into your, your method of dating.

Macy: It was a huge benefit. And it was a huge relief. I mean, it brought so much ease and actual fun because I actually had something that gave me a measurement where I could say, oh wow. I went out with this guy and yeah, I’m still curious about this person. I’m still wondering. So I’m leaving that at like a three-star and then going out with another person and seeing, wow, I’m really excited about this person more than that other person and it feels like a four-star. So it gave me actually a method to prioritize too.

Jodi: So, if you suddenly had a lot of four stars on, in, on your calendar, would you say no to a three-star that you would otherwise have said yes to if there were one and two stars asking you out?

Macy: I will admit that I probably didn’t have a circumstance where I had that many people in the funnel. (Laughter) But I will tell you that once I met my husband, who was the only five star candidate that came through, that he did bump a four star.

Jodi: Well, that, that was probably an immediate sign that this man was somebody you needed to get to know a lot better.

Macy: Exactly!

Jodi: You gave Larry five stars and that lucky man got to become your boyfriend. Share with us how he ultimately became your husband.

Macy: Yeah, well the five-star rating really was an amazing moment for me. And I’ll tell you that, that is the day that I celebrate more than even our engagement or our wedding anniversary is the day that he wrote me and I ran over to Linda’s cubicle. And I said, “I have a five-star candidate!” (Laughter)

Jodi: You knew right away when he emailed you.

Macy: I did because I was really excited about the way he looked. I could tell he had style, like a lot that I learned from his message and his profile online. Really showed me a lot of places we connected. And I guess if we can sidebar a little on that, that is so powerful in or in how you’re writing your profile and how you’re presenting yourself, that someone like, in this case where I had that visceral experience of – “yes, I see how we would be a good match” based on what he wrote and his pictures.

And it really helped me feel connected. Whereas a lot of people have quite generic write-ups and it takes a lot more effort to get into who they are. So that was part of probably why he got a five-star rating before even really meeting him.

Jodi: One of the things to take away from what you just said is that you encourage people to put a lot about themselves into their profiles if they’re on a platform that allows them to.

Macy: Exactly! And a lot of people are afraid to do that and it’s not wrong, but I would be aware of that. If someone out there who’s listening is writing about themselves in a way that is kind of generic and vanilla, then that actually doesn’t help your person find you.

And some people I know have felt – “well, I don’t want people at work to know I’m online,” or “I don’t want someone to find out,” or if there’s any of that energy happening, then guess what? You’re probably hiding from an amazing person.

Jodi: That’s a really interesting way to look at it that you are denying somebody, uh, knowing enough about you, such that they would want to meet you if you write

Macy: So that they can recognize you.

Jodi: Exactly. But you recognized Larry and you raced over to Linda. How did things transpire after that?

Macy: Well, Linda was excited, FYI and I actually wrote him. He had written me. So there was a really sweet and really funny and kind message that showed me that he really read my profile. So there is something beautiful about being acknowledged in that way. When you know someone has seen something that inspired them, his first line, “You had me at soup.” (Laughter)

You had me at soup was acknowledging that I had mentioned that I like making soup. There you go.

Jodi: There you go. What kind of soup?

Macy: I can make all the soups. I make all the soups all scratch and it makes me really happy. I love making soup for me and other people. And so it was. It’s kind of funny because I actually do remember a time when, when I was dating online and this was all the 10 or 15 years before I actually figured out what works that I was writing things that 1) were generic, 2) were what I thought a man would want to read. And therefore there was nothing really about me that was in it.

And it was this round, which was part of the “aha” and the change that I made and all of the inner work that I did that helped me really appreciate who I was. And I went from trying to be this mountainy woman in Colorado, because that’s what I thought men wanted, to actually, I’m not outdoorsy, I’m indoorsy. Actually, I love sewing. I like making soup from things from my garden. It really gave some details that for someone like Larry appreciates, that could go, yes. I do too. Me too!

Jodi: You evolved as a woman, as a person, in the process of trying to find love. And there was a man out there who responded to that authenticity and what you presented online and to the world. That sounds like an incredibly healthy and life affirming way to approach dating.

Macy: Yes. And I will also say that there weren’t a lot of candidates. There weren’t a lot of people that excited me. And when I would do my own searches online, I would find that there’d be not that many people who would come up based on the things that I valued and I was looking for.

I didn’t make that a problem because what I knew that I hadn’t known all the other times I was dating, is that, yes, my person is special. My person is not everyone. And I am excited to meet this person, even if it takes a little while.

Jodi: You were not going to compromise. You were going to wait for your person. And you, because you deserve that person. And everybody listening to us deserves their person as well.

Macy: Right. And I had an awareness of what that was. So part of the SuperLOVED System in the tools I teach include a lot of different ways that we come back to ourselves, come back to actually being honest and honoring who we are and not coming from a place of judgment or comparing or thinking I have to have my mom’s relationship or my best friend from college’s relationship. Like all of the things that can make us feel wrong or like it doesn’t exist. And the only thing we need to know is, “Do I have the desire to share my life with someone? Is that something I have in my heart?” And if the answer is yes, then know that that desire is not just for you. That desire is you AND the other person.

So the desire includes another person. So are you willing to have that consciousness of, “yes, I am showing up for this love relationship that has been simmering in my heart. And I know what that feels like, and I am choosing it and knowing that it includes another person” In some ways I think it’s kind of interesting to go, “oh, if I’m scared to do it for me, or if I don’t have the courage to put myself out there for me, what I want to rob someone of their love story?”

Okay. That’s a little bit of a guilt trip thing, but still, can you really expand into a new consciousness of, this is actually not just me? This is a relationship that wants to be created WITH me.

Jodi: It’s an inclusive approach to dating. It’s setting out with intention for yourself, but knowing that one day there’ll be another person stepping into that with you. And that you need to be thinking about that from the outset. Is that what you’re saying?

Macy: I think it’s just an awareness that you’re not really alone with that desire. When I met Larry, there was a really clear sense that we were both asking for each other. And if he had thrown in the towel or given up, then we wouldn’t have met. If I had given up or burned out or just decided, “oh, I guess it’s not going to happen for me” and fallen for the inner critics or the doubt and the fears then, you know, maybe we would’ve met later. But what if we wouldn’t have met? I just feel like it’s kind of a magical way of looking at things that can inspire people to really honor those desires in a bigger way.

Jodi: So many of us, at times, give in to the doubts and the inner critics. It’s tough to date at times. It should be always wonderful. It should be always fun, but that usually isn’t the case all the time. How do you recommend that people who are dating try to avoid giving into the doubt and inner critics? What can they do to avoid succumbing to all of that?

Macy: I think the most important thing is to remember that the inner critics and the doubt, that’s not real. It’s not that you’re not having feelings. Okay. You’re having feelings or you’re sensing things, but to be so committed to that desire, that that’s bigger than any of the doubts and the fears. Because when you think, “Okay, well, I can’t do this. I can’t have that. I guess it’s not in the cards.”

And there’s this heaviness. I think all the inner critics, have a quality to them that is heavy. And that’s not actually what we’re here for. We’re here for the ease and the joy, and that’s actually possible when you don’t buy into and agree with and fall for the seduction of those inner critics.

Yes, it’s absolutely probably unavoidable for that to show up in a dating experience because, it’s just an, it’s something that means a lot to people. It means a lot. It’s a heart issue or a heart creation that, of course it matters to people. So just knowing that, when you’re asking for something and anything that’s related to the heart is going to call up the inner critics naturally.

And when you can say, “Oh yeah, that’s an inner critic,” then you can name it and you can go, “Okay, well, what is it ultimately that I really know that I want to create?” And be disciplined enough to say “I am choosing that no matter what, and not falling for the tricks of the critics.”

Jodi: I think that’s really tremendous advice that applies well beyond the dating world

Macy:  Yes!

Jodi: Because the inner critic speaks up in our lives in lots of different points of time. And it’s something that all of us have to contend with. So that is really terrific advice.

One of the things you’re known for is your “No Rules Dating Approach.” Shine some light on that for us, please.

Macy: The No Rules Dating Approach is really remembering that you are the chooser as the data. And when people say, and there’s a lot of dating coaches out there that have a lot of rules. And to me, it’s an immediate disempowering experience to say, “Okay, I don’t know what I’m doing. I have to rely on these rules. I can’t trust myself.”

So being stuck with a bunch of rules around dating means that you’re not connected to you. So that’s why I like to invite people to consider, you’re the one that gets to create this.

And you’re the one who will know. Every relationship is different and it’s, it is scary to not have rules. Some people rely on rules because then they don’t have to think that, oh, they’re going to fail or that they’re going to do it wrong. And if they follow the rules, then they have to get a certain result.

And yet even following rules, then they don’t get the result they want. And then, okay, they get to be right about being single forever or whatever the thing is. To me, it creates a lot of disempowerment and what I love about teaching women about relationship in the SuperLOVED System is that it’s all about the art and the consciousness of finding the one, which means that you become the advocate for you. And that you’re in relationship with yourself in a really powerful way.

Jodi: I really wish I had heard your perspective on all of this when so many years ago, I was holding a copy of that darn book, The Rules, in my hand. A lot of Gen X women have read that book and I think it affected a lot of us in the way that we dated and what you just laid out is exactly opposite to what that book said. And what you just laid out, to me, sounds a heck of a lot healthier and more empowering than the behavior that book guided us to follow.

Macy: Exactly! And how many people feel wrong or bad because they broke one of the rules or feel like they can’t do the thing? And what is that about anyway, that leaves nothing for your own awareness, your own consciousness to contribute to?

So, this is about a next level relationship. That’s why I called it “SuperLOVED” because it is the relationship where, you know you’re SuperLOVED and it starts before you even start dating and that, you know that you have the ability to go, “Okay, what’s here? What would I like to create? Is this working for me?” And then navigating from there.

Every person, with another person, even when it’s not in a love relationship scenario, is going to have a different experience. You and I, together we’re having this conversation because it’s you and I together and what is created when we come together and it’s no different. It’s not like, okay, now there’s a million rules for how to do a podcast. And we have to talk about this now. And we can’t talk about this until later.

Like, what is that? That’s not, not fun at all. I don’t want a relationship like that. And I would say to that, yeah, there are some people who are going to feel better having a bunch of rules. And if that’s the case, then they get to choose that. That’s not the relationship I was looking to create.

Jodi: And then it’s not the relationship you’re helping your clients and future clients create either.

Macy: Exactly because the women who come to me often have already had some experiences of relationship, maybe even a marriage that didn’t work out. Maybe a brilliant relationship and there was a loss. And there’s just a next level space where it’s being able to know more about yourself because you’ve lived some life and we just want something different now. We’re not our grandmother who was married because that was the neighborhood boy, and we need to have babies so that we can keep the farm going. It’s not that anymore.

We’re in a different time on the planet, where there is more of a desire for these deeper connected, spiritual type relationships that really become even how we grow and have a deeper consciousness with ourselves and the world.

Jodi: Who is the woman who can benefit from the SuperLOVED System?

Macy: The woman that I just adore working with is the kind of woman who actually has had success in her life. She knows that she has something great to offer a relationship. She may have some fears and doubts. She probably isn’t too excited about the modern dating world, maybe because she hasn’t done it before or has tried it before and it’s felt really inauthentic or icky in some way. And it’s the kind of person who loves personal development.

I mean, ultimately this isn’t, like we just talked about, it’s not a bunch of rules, it’s not gimmicks, it’s not a magic pill. It’s really about your own journey in life. And being able to dissolve any of the barriers that are making having a relationship scary or not attractive.

Sometimes women will come to me and say, “oh, well, you know, things are going so well, like I don’t want to lose anything. I don’t want to have to compromise.” And I don’t see it that way at all. That’s just typically a protection. So we can actually get past these barriers. All we need to know is, “Would you love to share your life with someone? And the SuperLOVED System gives them an experience that dissolves those limitations and allows for love to come in

Jodi: Dissolving the limitations and allowing love to come in. That is what we all strive for if we’re looking for love. How do our listeners get in touch with you and learn more about your coaching?

Macy: Thanks for asking for people who want to learn more. I do have a website, GetSuperLoved.com can go there, learn a lot more about what I have to offer and things that are going on.

I have a lot of content and free things available, but I also have an amazing quiz. So for those people who are kind of wondering. Where am I on the super love journey. If you go to this LoveVibeQuiz.com.

So this assessment is not about finding out what Kardashians you are, what Simpson’s character it is. It’s actually a really meaningful assessment for those who really do want to find out what they can do to actually take that next step in their love life. Just answering the questions will give you tons of awareness.

So go to LoveVibeQuiz.com to take that assessment. And then you certainly are open to setting up a time with me. If you know, you want to have a relationship in the next three to six months. Message me on my website, reach out, fill out an application to have a call with me. It’ll be free and there’s no obligation to coach with me, but it will give you an idea of what you can do next.

Jodi: Terrific! And we will put those links in the show notes so listeners will have immediate access to them.

Macy: Thank you.

Jodi: Thank you Macy. I have really enjoyed talking with you. I’ve really enjoyed delving into the SuperLOVED System and learning how it’s more than just about finding love with somebody else. It’s also about grounding yourself in the love you have for yourself and that holistic approach is really a special one and I have no doubt is an incredibly powerful and effective one. Thank you for coming on the podcast and being my special guests this episode.

Macy: Thank you for having me.

The post Special Episode: The SuperLOVED System with Macy Matarazzo appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Hello, Cindy. It is terrific to have you back on the show! Thank you very much for coming and spending time with me and the listeners again, to tell us another first state store.

Cindy: Well, I’m happy to be here, Jodi. I love first state stories and I’m excited to share another one with you.

Jodi: Oh, that means so much. And I know you’ve got a good one to tell us about today now. Unfortunately, I know that you’ve had experience with personal tragedy and upheaval before. And those listeners who’ve heard the “Cindy and Mike” episode from Season 2, they know what I’m talking about, but for those listeners who have not heard that episode yet, could you please share again what happened to you when you were 46 years old?

Cindy: Yes. I am a widow. My husband passed away. We were both 46 years old. I’m now 61. So that’s been 15 years. Yeah. He had cancer and was diagnosed with a tumor in his leg. And then even after intensive chemotherapy it spread to his lungs and he passed away. So it was from 44 to 46 years old that we had the cancer ordeal in our lives, and then he passed away.

So my whole life changed as a result. And any widow knows that. Of course you don’t expect something like this to happen when you’re making all your plans for your future and your life together.

Jodi: Of course you don’t. And it’s such a sad thing that happened. I recall from the last episode, you talking about what a tremendous man. He was and how he still remains with you as you forge forward in life.

Cindy: Yes. And I have two adult sons and two grandchildren and a daughter-in-law.

Jodi: You lost your husband had 46. How did you step forward and out again into the world and eventually get yourself to a place where you were ready to date?

Cindy: Yeah, that’s a great question. My younger son was a sophomore in high school when his father passed away. And so of course an emphasis was on him and school and getting him through school.

I’m a very social person. And so the period when my husband was ill, I was of course, devoted to his caretaking and I was working full time, which I still am doing, and family. Tasks and everything that involves being a mother and a caretaker and a full-time worker. I had a couple of girlfriends, one was recently divorced. We would spend time together and then I gradually got on a dating site, E-harmony and Match.

I was ready to meet people because just being social and going out with girlfriends….I don’t like going to bars. How am I going to meet someone? Or just even as a friend, a male friend. I was looking for companionship. So what is the best way to do that? So I did start dating online a couple of years after my husband passed.

Jodi: I’m curious. Does the topic of you being a widow come up when you’re starting to get to know a new man?

Cindy: I feel like most of the sites you choose, like you’re divorced or widowed. So I always put I’m widowed, but I did have, as I recall one, man, I went out a few times. It was just super tentative for me as far as any kind of physical recognition or any kind of touching or kissing as we went out a few times and he stopped going out with me. I think he was unsure how to approach me either. And he’s just like, I don’t think you’re ready and I’m not ready with you being a widow.

Jodi: But now we’re many years later and many dates later and many relationships later. Right? And so when we last left off, you still had the 3D model of your back house that Mike and his daughter had made for you, but otherwise you had moved on,

Cindy: Correct. Yes.

Jodi: It’s about two years later. And you’ve got a new date to tell us about who is this date?

Cindy: Okay. This date is with Bob. I met him on Match. He reached out to me with a message. It was very a great message because he commented about one of my photos. And I really liked that because on a number of the dating apps, you’ll have men just reach out and say “Hi” or “Hi Beautiful” or “You’ve got a beautiful smile” and that’s all they’ll say. It’s just a very tentative approach.

Then I’ll message back usually cause I know it’s awkward to reach out to someone. But I really appreciated that he commented specifically about my photo and the setting of my photo being near a town where he lived.

Jodi: He saw your photo, he processed it and thought about it and then made a point of telling you that he admired your appearance and could connect with where you were. So clearly he was reaching out to you to make a true connection and not just throw out a “Hey Beautiful”.

Cindy: Yes he was.

Jodi: And what happened next?

Cindy: Well, it was a Sunday morning when he first messaged me in January of this year and we messaged back and forth that day. And then he sent me a lot of photos that day, because on the app, he didn’t have very many photos.

He sent me photos of his home and his yard and he has some cattle and it was very charming and very sweet that he did that. And then I initiated would he like to have a video chat or talk?

I was attracted to him. He is in good physical condition and he’s actually a year younger than me. And so that was nice. So I was excited to get to know more about him. So we talked by telephone and it was nice. It was a good conversation, just kind of back and forth. He is a big talker, so he did share quite a bit about himself in our phone call.

Jodi: Did he overshare?

Cindy: No. He talked about his children, a boy and a girl, older out of college. It was a good amount. And then he followed up with that and he said, I wanted you to know, I very much enjoyed speaking with you today and I look forward to our next conversation.

So it was a great Sunday for me to get that kind of communication. And then he told me to text or call if I have the urge and he said, “I’ll be waiting to hear from you.” So then he kind of put it to me to do that which I was kinda like, okay.

Jodi: Yeah. He landed it straight on your lap! You felt good about that though.

Cindy: Yes. Yeah. I was appreciative that he initiated the first conversation. But I’m outgoing and I don’t mind kind of initiating things like that. So we did talk the next day too, and I always try to set up a time cause we’re so busy. And instead waiting to see, especially since he put it in my lap. So we talked the next evening.

Jodi: And how did the conversations evolve to the point that you made a date?

Cindy: Midway through the week I initiated in our texting that it’s the Martin Luther King holiday weekend coming up in January, and that I had Monday off, and that if he wanted to visit because he did live too hours away.

Jodi: That’s quite a distance.

Cindy: Yes. Right.

Jodi: So the two of you seeing each other takes one of you or both of you to travel and really make some time commitment to get to wherever the rendezvous spot is.

Cindy: And I’m a planner. So he did not initiate meeting after I had said it would be nice to meet in person till Sunday and said, “Good morning, it’s a beautiful day. What are your plans today? I thought about a day out and coming to see you today or tomorrow.” So that was in the morning on Sunday. And so I said, “Hey, I have Monday off. Why don’t we do tomorrow? Because I need more planning time.”

So since it’s my town he was visiting, he wanted me to initiate where we should meet. And I’m fine with that. So we made plans to meet at a restaurant that had a rooftop deck.

He texted me and he said, “Hey, I’m a little early,” so of course that’s very considerate cause he was driving from out of town. We had made plans to meet at 12:30pm and he got there at 12:00pm.

Jodi: He sounds like a considerate man.

Cindy: I was getting that feeling, yes. I felt kind of bad that he needed to wait, but it was fine. I got there on time and, and then we had lunch.

Jodi: Now, backing up to before you had lunch. When you got there, what was the “hello” like with him?

Cindy: Well, we had on masks and it was just kind of a “hello” and smiling with your eyes through the mask while the host has made our way upstairs to the patio where we had lunch.

Jodi: It is like a big reveal, isn’t it? When you pull off the mask, when you’re on a first date after doing that animated eye contact, when you’re wearing masks that we’ve all gotten good at.

Cindy: Yes. We were both happy to see each other and making eye contact and feeling comfortable. I felt comfortable with him.

So, he didn’t peruse the menu too much in detail. He was like, “I’ll have enchiladas.” It was a Mexican restaurant. I’m more of a foodie. So I would have liked looking at appetizers, having maybe ceviche. But we didn’t do that. And I didn’t want to request that. So I ordered my meal and I actually can’t remember what I had. But each of us had one course and no appetizers. So I kind of made note of that. Although he had told me he did like to cook.

You don’t know what makes people order like that. It could be not wanting to spend a lot of money at restaurants. The city kind of environment can be more expensive than the ranch area where he’s from.

Jodi: Okay. Bob and you placed your orders and how did things evolve from that point forward?

Cindy: Well, he did share about some surgery he was going to need to have. And so those kinds of things are sometimes, oh, you know, yuck! It had to do with that he used snuff when he was a young man. And so he was having to do some surgery in his mouth.

So that was like, “Okay is this what I really need to know about on that first date?” But for him to be sharing and another aspect to me, it’s like, well, that’s very open and comfortable having a conversation with me and I tend to ask a lot of questions. He did share about that with me. And it was a beautiful day. And since we knew he had come in so far, we were talking about taking a walk along the river after lunch.

Jodi: You did your stroll and how did things evolve from there?

Cindy: As a matter of fact, we ended up not walking as much as I thought we might, but we did stop and sit and talk to each other.

He has been divorced twice and so he shared more about his second marriage, the divorce, and a lot of detail about that relationship and things that had happened that were a little traumatic in his life. So he was very open and sharing things like that. And he did most of the talking. He had been divorced about a year, so I don’t know how much he had gone out before meeting me.

Jodi: Was it a little too much for you to be listening to all of that, to taking in all of that because it seems that he shared some pretty heavy duty stuff? So often on first dates, it’s much more, I wouldn’t say casual, but much more high level in the conversation. Not that you shouldn’t ask some important questions, but to disclose your history your past with all your past divorces and so on, that can be a lot.

Cindy: It was. And I think that since he lived two hours away and had, you know, drove in that, I guess I should have thought that more would be shared because we would be spending a longer time together.

Because is he going to drive in for two hours for a 90 minute lunch? So it just….I didn’t really think about that. It would lead to that much in depth conversation, but it did. And it was a lot to take in because there was a lot of….there’s even a lawsuit and things having to do with her workplace and just a lot of drama with his second marriage that he shared with me.

Jodi: Were you concerned with all that he shared that he had a history of being involved with drama and that he might bring that into a relationship with you?

Cindy: I was concerned. But I know that we all are not blank slates anymore. We’ve all had things happen in our lives. And for some people, me being a widow might be seen as a traumatic life experience. And certainly it was with my husband’s illness. So I just tried to be open and listen to his story.

And it, it seemed to be that the second wife especially had a lot of drama around her and he made a decision to marry her too quickly. So I was really giving him the benefit of the doubt and seeing him in a positive light by the story he told me.

Jodi: You and Bob have had a lot of time to converse about a lot of things. What happened next?

Cindy: Sure. So given we’d had a couple of phone conversations and he had texted me all those pictures, and he was sharing his life story with me, and he had driven two hours into town, I was like, do you want to come by my house and we can hang out on my front porch for a little bit?

It was four o’clock – late afternoon, four or five. And I just wanted to spend more time with him, to get to know him better, and to not have him drive the two hours home yet.

Jodi: That’s a big deal. What were you hoping would happen when you invited him to your home instead of, let’s say, to go walk through a shopping mall or some other neutral spot where other people were around you?

Cindy: Oh, that’s a great question. And you know, usually on a first date, I don’t have a man come to my house. But I wanted him to get to know me better. And my house is very personally decorated.

I’ve lived many places. I have a lot of artifacts. It’s a very comfy home. And I wanted him to see how I lived to get to know me better because I was interested in him. He had a lot of qualities that were attractive to me. He was financially secure, owned his home, the ranch. I knew he’d had really interesting, good job.

Actually he went to college in New York City, even though he grew up in more of a ranch setting. And he had traveled a lot. And so I was learning all of this, about him through this date and through our conversations. So I wanted him to get to know me better too. And I thought by seeing my home and spending some time there, that he would get to know me better.

Jodi: You mentioned earlier that he did a lot of the talking. Could it be that you wanted him to see your place because he hadn’t asked a lot of questions about you to the extent that you would have liked? So for him to see your place is presenting yourself a visual way versus a conversational way.

Cindy: Yes. I think that’s a great way to put it.

Jodi: What happened when you both got back to your place?

Cindy: Well I briefly showed him my home and we sat on the front porch and talked and then he was like “Do you have any coffee?” And I’m like “Sure.” And by then it was about 7pm and made him some coffee for him to take on the drive home.

Jodi: By this point you two had been together for what? Six or seven hours.

Cindy: Yes.

Jodi: Yes. I’m presuming the two of you got together again. So take us through please. How things transpired from there?

Cindy: So we did go on a second date another long date because he was driving in. I heard from him that first week after our first day. And he said, “I’m already thinking about when we can get together again.” And so we got together the next weekend. He drove into town on a Saturday and we spent the day together again. He came to my house first and we went on a short hike with a beautiful view and had a casual lunch. And so it was another great day. And that ended with me making him coffee and him driving home.

Jodi: Wow! You developed a quick little routine there didn’t you. Did the second date then lead to a third date?

Cindy: It did lead to a third day, but more than a month later.

Jodi: Why was that? What transpired in the interim?

Cindy: He had some more drama in his life where he was his ranch was broken into and he was robbed. And he had a number of clues to determine that it was the friend of his second ex-wife. When he first told me you know, it was a bit overwhelming. But he did share it with me I didn’t hear from him for a while. He was in the emergency room. He was beat up in his sleep.

Jodi: Oh, my gosh! So he was physically injured and recovering.

Cindy: Yes. And then we had a big snow storm and we live in an area where we don’t get a lot of snow, but we were FaceTiming and communicating. He actually helped me figure out what to do with frozen pipes. And we had this great conversation cause he builds houses and is very handy. And so he was giving me advice and I was so appreciative and we were sharing back and forth like, like this is a genuine relationship cause you’re supporting each other, even though we’re not seeing each other,

Jodi: Had you considered driving the two hours to see him while he was caught and below.

Cindy: So we did have the bad snow storm. I did want to go to his house and see his ranch in person. Then he ended up selling it very quickly because of the trauma that happened. So we would talk, I would check in, text. “How are you feeling?” Then I wouldn’t hear from him for a few days and he would just be like, “I’m really busy. I’m packing things up.” He also had a lawsuit. He also was meeting with sheriffs. So he had a lot going on.

Jodi: That is a lot that he has happening. You don’t owe him anything other than just being a friendly, considerate, caring woman. And he really hasn’t asked very much of you either.

In your mind were you seeing yourself with him longer term and becoming a part of his life?

Cindy: Well, at one point he said, “If you could live anywhere, where would it be?” And he sent me a picture of a home in Montana and I’m like, “That is gorgeous.” And I said, “I would want to be in a place that had an airport relatively close so that family could come visit. But I was open to thinking about having a second home in a more rural area like that.”

He did pose that question to me. So we had those kinds of conversations, kind of like tentative. And I said “With the right person, you know, when I get to know that right person. I would be willing to do that.”

Jodi: This is a lot to be discussing and to be dealing with with a person you’ve only met twice, never even kissed before.

Cindy: Correct. We did hug the second date and we did kiss very lightly.

Jodi: Oh, there was a little kind of peck sort of kiss?

Cindy: Yes.

Jodi: But nothing very romantic and nothing very lingering. Okay.

Cindy: Yes.

Jodi: Okay. Well take us to date three then please.

Cindy: Well, the date three happened. Like I said more than a month later and it was on a Friday, late afternoon. He happened to be in my town for a meeting for a job. He was looking at. I had made reservations on a rooftop deck to see the sunset, another rooftop, but a different restaurant. And then we went for another walk and he held my hand as we walked and he really enjoyed it. It was a little more romantic and I was initiating kind of like hugging.

And as we sat on the couch, I sat next to him. He was not initiating as much physical contact. So I initiated it because I wanted that to begin exploring that more since this was our third, you know, like 4 – 6 hour date. So he did hug me and said “This feels good” and kind of picked me up when he hugged me. And so we had more physical contact on this date that I enjoyed.

Jodi: How were you feeling when this was all going on? Especially since you acknowledged the were sort of leading the contact between the two of you?

Cindy: He did not initiate more. So I was a little disappointed. I was looking forward to a following date that maybe that would be one where we would become more physically connected.

Jodi: How did that date close out? What transpired between the two of you when you parted ways?

Cindy: The third date? It was positive. I made him his coffee. We kiss goodbye and he’s like, “Hmmm.. that’s nice.” And you know, he hugged me. He had his two hour drive home. The other thing that we had to talk about on that date is I had trips plan to visit family.

Jodi: Were the two of you in touch during that time?

Cindy: We were in touch. I sent him pictures of me and my grandchildren. But it wasn’t as much in touch as I would have liked but he did say when I was coming back that he was ready to have me back home.

Jodi: Gotcha. He was ready to be with you again?

Cindy: Yes. We planned date number four and I initiated through a text. “You have this long drive to my house. Would you like to stay the night?”

Jodi: Oh, okay. You put it out there!

Cindy: Yes, because he had not. And so he says, “well, that might be a good idea.” So I heard from him Saturday night and he had some issues with a rental car. He said “I misplaced my phone at the car rental. I found my phone I’m headed home.”

So then Sunday morning around 10:00am I hadn’t heard from him and I texted and then I called and there was no answer. And all day Sunday, I did not hear from him. He did not come to my home. He didn’t call me or text me. He ghosted me and stood me up!

Jodi: He ghosted you and stood you up.

Cindy: Yes, it was devastating. I have been ghosted by men I’ve communicated with a few times and then they just disappear. That’s not a big deal to me. This….we had those three long dates, as I’ve described to you, sharing of photos, family history.

Nothing from him! So on Wednesday, I hadn’t heard anything, but for myself I needed closure. So I sent him a very long text saying “I hope you’re okay. I’m going to share how I’m thinking and feeling with you for myself. And you don’t have to respond.”

Jodi: That’s very nice considering what he did. Did you get a response?

Cindy: No. So Jodi, I am only responsible for my actions and my feelings. So what he did, I didn’t take personally.

He has a lot going on in his life and I feel like I had been supportive, but there were like so many red flags about the drama in his life. And so maybe I dodged a bullet.

And actually, Jodi, I have been going out, not just with Bob, but yeah. Other men I’ve had other dates. And actually a man has been very devoted to me during all of this time when I’ve been going out with other men. And I decided to really give this man a chance because he’s always there for me. He’s reliable, responsible. Cares for me. And that he was willing to wait and see, you know, what would happen. And I really liked Bob because he was well-educated well-traveled financially secure, owned his home.

This other man doesn’t own his home. But he is very devoted and kind to me and loving it. And so I am focusing on those qualities and not the qualities I thought I should be looking for in a man.

Jodi: Well, first off, congratulations, because you deserve to receive all that kindness and all of that loving from someone with a big heart and a kind soul and I’m really glad it’s going so well for you and him.

And this experience with Bob, it seems really was eye opening for you because it helped you hone in on what’s truly important in the person that you want to be with.

Cindy: That’s correct. Yes.

Jodi: And maybe the qualities that you thought or the characteristics of his profile that you thought were important at the end of the day are not as important when you’re picking the person – the companion and the partner – that you want to work on, exploring a relationship with long-term.

Well, whether it was that he wasn’t in the emotional place, the right emotional right place to be involved, or some other reason, I think what you said earlier is likely right. He did you a favor and you are in such a better relationship, in such a better place now.

You’ve gained a lot of knowledge and perspective. What advice do you have this time for the women listening to us talk about how to approach dating and what wisdom do you have for them?

Cindy: The man I’m currently with, I didn’t think I would continue on with him. But he remained so devoted and kind that he stayed in my life. Despite me meeting other men who I think, who I thought, would be better suited to me. And I found out they weren’t.

So my advice is to be open to men who you might not think you would be interested in and when they show you who they are, believe them. So I wasn’t 100% surprised by being stood up and ghosted, kind of more a fit with the pattern I saw with his life having a lot of drama.

Jodi: Take Maya Angelou’s words to heart….”When someone shows you who they are, believe them.”

Cindy: Correct.

Jodi: Great words. Great story. Thank you so much, Cindy, for coming back on the show.

Cindy: Well thank you, Jodi. And it was a pleasure to be on your podcast again.

The post Cindy and Bob appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Hi! I’m glad you’ve tuned into this special episode. If you’re dating with the goal of meeting a loving partner and getting married, then you’ll want to hear what my guest has to say. Marcia Naomi Berger has a Master’s in Social Work and is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a private psychotherapy practice.

She has taught continuing education classes for therapists at the university of California Berkeley extension Alliant international university and for various professional associations, while employed by the city and county of San Francisco, she held senior level positions in child welfare, alcoholism, treatment and psychiatry.

She has also served as a lecturer on the clinical faculty at the University of California school of medicine and as executive director of the Jewish Family and Children’s Services of the east bay Marcia lives in Marin County, California, with her husband of 33 years,

She gives their weekly marriage meetings, major credit for their lasting happiness together, which inspired her to write her first book, the best-selling Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love.

She has led dynamic marriage and communication workshops and is a popular speaker at conferences last month. Marcia published her second book, which is titled marriage. An A to Z Dating Guide for Lasting Love. Her new book affirms the universal need for loving relationships and makes wanting to be married a valid choice, any worthwhile goal for smart, strong, and independent women of all ages as well as for the men who respect and appreciate. Marcia is also a featured contributor to the First Date Stories blog, which I’m so happy about. When you go to the blog, you’ll find her article, “Can I Be Vulnerable with Him?” And the article we just published this week titled “Is He Ready for Marriage? Put Him to the Test.”

Hi Marcia. Thank you so much for joining me this episode.

Marcia: Oh, hi Jodi. It’s my pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Jodi: Absolutely. Now, as I mentioned, you’re well known for creating the concept of marriage meetings, writing a book about it and working with numerous couples to help them implement this technique. And you also hold Marriage with Confidence workshops.  So you’ve talked to a lot of couples and a lot of singles. So many people are looking for the perfect spouse. Is there such a thing?

Marcia: Here’s the problem with that idea, Jodi. If you’re looking for the perfect spouse, what does that say about what you have to be?

Jodi: Perfect.

Marcia: Are you ready for that? So there’s no such thing as a perfect spouse. And I think it would be very dangerous for us if there were, because that would be a lot for us to live up to, to be the right match for that person. We all have our imperfections and it’s a matter of learning how to accept the ones that you can live with. And to know what’s a deal breaker.

Jodi: So in that case, what should people be looking for?

Marcia: They should be looking for similar values or enough similar values. And spiritual or religious compatibility, intellectual compatibility, and then various character traits that are one of the most neglected traits of that people just forget to think about is kindness. I think kindness just goes such a long way for keeping a relationship good. Both people knowing how important it is to be kind and to give the benefit of the doubt when it’s a good idea to do that. And, you know, instead of judging, being a more understanding, so kindness and many other character traits, honesty. Everybody could make their list of what they especially want to have in a lifelong partner.

Jodi: Very true. And I couldn’t agree with you more, that kindness is critical in a relationship. But it’s really so important in our everyday interactions as we go about our business in life, don’t you think?

Marcia: I think so, for sure. And the same traits that make for a good lifelong marriage partnership, they tend to extend into other relationships also with coworkers, friends, and family members.

Jodi: Yes. Very true. Very true. Okay. You do a lot of meetings. You do marriage meetings and you can’t have a meeting without communicating. Right? That’s what a meeting’s about, it’s to be able to effectively communicate with the other people at your meeting, whether it’s at a business meeting or the marriage meetings that you have crafted and brought to so many people.

Fill us in on some communication clues that you’d advise women who are dating to look for in a prospective partner.

Marcia: I’m thinking about where to start with that because there are in my first book, Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love. I have chapters that explain in detail how to use seven different communication techniques. And they’re also important. An easy one to start with is “I” statements, instead of the opposite which is a “You” statement.

And so if you might initially find yourself, say slightly annoyed by something that somebody does let’s say you want him to say, “please,” when he doesn’t say “please,” and he’s asking you to do something and instead of you could kind of destroy the relationship by, by getting all over him because he didn’t say please and saying, “you’re so rude.” You don’t say please, da da da….But if you want to communicate kindly you say, “I would love it if you would say “please” when you ask me to do your thing.” So that’s an “I” statement.

A “You” statement is generally telling somebody that they’re wrong somehow or bad or blaming them. An “I” statement is saying I’m taking responsibility for what I want, how I feel.

I’m expressing my true self in a way that’s respectful both to you and to myself. So that’s one communication skill.

Jodi: And a valuable one.

Marcia: Yeah, there they all are. And there is, there is a congruent communication, which is again, being consistent, your words and your body language, everything goes together. So if you’re saying something kind, you look kind. Otherwise it’ll be a mixed message. If you look angry, when you’re saying something where the words are polite. And knowing the importance of nonverbal communication is very important because that’s what we tune in most to.

We make think the words are the most important thing. But there’s research that shows in interpersonal communication, 55% of the communication that people receive as the body language, how we’re moving. Our arms legs, our shoulders, our facial expression. This is the thing that people take in most. And then there’s voice tone, which also goes a long way. That’s 38%. The actual words people receive only 7%.

Jodi: Really? That’s really interesting because we spend a lot of time choosing our words. And yet we spend so much less time thinking about how we’re positioning our body and, conveying things in that manner. So this is really eye opening.

Marcia: Yeah, it’s something to be aware of and it does start coming naturally. Like most of the skills, they may feel awkward when we start, but then practice improves it and it makes it start feeling natural.

Jodi: Which is so important and in communications. Ultimately you need to be with somebody who can communicate with in a very safe, comfortable, open, honest manner.

Marcia: Definitely.

Jodi: Well, unfortunately, there are the times when people cannot master communications and communications fall apart, and the relationships can’t continue on. You yourself are an adult child of divorce, and you write a lot about the impact that your parents’ divorce had on your mother.

What advice do you have for divorced women who may be hesitant to remarry, especially if they’ve come out of a painful or difficult ending to their marriage?

Marcia: Jodi, I think that’s an excellent question because it does affect so many people now, what with you don’t have half a first marriage is ending in divorce and higher percentages for second and even third marriages, respectively. It’s the people who get divorced and their children. It has such a wide impact on everybody involved.

And it’s very, very important to let yourself grieve before even trying to get into another relationship. To feel whatever you have to feel. Get therapy. That helps a lot of people. If you need a place just to just sound out without necessarily having your friends tell you what you should do or how bad your ex was. But to go through what it was like for you and whatever feelings you have, but to focus on what you’re going and eventually what you’ve learned from it.

If you get to the point where you do want to partner with somebody again, to become very clear on what you want. You mentioned that communication is important and having good communication is, I would say, it’s essential for a good relationship. The other big key is choosing wisely.

A lot of people, maybe because of how they grew up, they might have something going on dysfunctional between their parents and unconsciously they may repeat the same thing and then be disappointed in their marriage. And some people will marry somebody with the same issue more than once whether the really serious ones like, they’ve been abused by their spouse and then they marry another abuser. God forbid! Or somebody with a severe addiction or somebody who’s verbally abusive. You want to get your head clear on what kind of relationship you truly deserve rather than automatically going into something that may be more destructive for you than constructive.

Jodi: That is very important advice. You mentioned that people sometimes have a tendency to go back to the same type of person that they were with before, even though that relationship was an unhealthy one for them. Can you dig into that a little deeper please and kind of explain why that happens?

Marcia: Yeah. There’s a psycho dynamic term that many therapists know about called the “repetition compulsion” and that refers to something that happens to a lot of us that comes very naturally. And that is to communicate with a partner in a way that replicates how we saw our parents communicating and how it went in our family.

So if there was a lot of blaming and even verbal abuse, a woman might stay with a partner who’s basically disrespectful to her because of what’s called the repetition compulsion. And the strange thing is that there is an odd kind of comfort in the familiar. And if you think about the word “familiar”, it relates to the word “family.”

And that’s why it’s familiar, because our formative years are spent in a place where we pick up everything and it doesn’t go away. We are likely to repeat it if we don’t say, “Hey, I’m going to gain some self-awareness about why I’m not moving forward in my life or in my relationship, the way I want to.” And we can change where if we have a combination of the will and whatever kind of help we need to secure that help.

Jodi: Okay. Thank you for delving into that. And I did not know that familiar was derived from the word family, but in the context in which you shared that, it makes a lot of sense! It really does.

Now, I spoke about divorce. We also have listeners who are widows and widows can feel that by dating again, they’re betraying their deceased spouse, but they do want to find a next partner.

So how can those who’ve lost a spouse enter the dating scene again in a very healthy and self-forgiving and self-affirming way?

Marcia: Well, similarly, in some ways to somebody who has been hurt by divorce, both losses and it is important to grieve a loss, and to grieve it for as long and as thoroughly as you need to before you’re going to be ready to move on and be able to shift your energy into a new relationship. So the keyword for me is to “grieve.”

Jodi: To take the time to grieve.

Marcia: Take as long as you need and don’t listen to anybody who says you should be done in one year or five years or six months. Everybody has their own timetable.

Jodi: While somebody is grieving the end of a relationship, are there things that you advise them to do to help them move through that experience at whatever pace is right for them?

Marcia: I’m saying the word again and again, to be able to grieve, to feel the pain, to feel the loss, and also to find whatever kind of learning you can gain from that experience. If you want to have something different in your next relationship.

For example, if you didn’t assert yourself and you just let the other person basically dominate you where you ended up feeling like a victim and also not really a very exciting partner if you’re not expressing yourself.

So maybe you’ll think through that. How did I let that happen? And what do I want to do differently next time? And again, either I do this alone, with friends, with a mentor or with a therapist, wherever you’re going to get the best kind of help you need. It’s hard to do it alone.

Jodi: I’m sure it is. It’s hard to do much of anything in life alone. It’s often easier to have a friend or some sort of support system to help one through both the good times and the challenging times. Right?

Marcia: Right! Yeah. We’re not meant to be alone. Many of us need time for ourselves. We need our own space too. But to know that there are other people in our life who care about us and whose company we enjoy and they enjoy our company. It’s part of life.

Jodi: It is. We’ve talked about people coming out of relationships. Now let’s look at people going into relationships through dating, which takes us to your book, your new book, Marriage Minded: An A to Z Dating Guide for Lasting Love. Why did you write this book and what are you hoping to achieve with it?

Marcia: Well, I wrote the book because I have discovered that my mission, or at least a major purpose of my being on earth, is to help people create fulfilling marriages, whether they’re already married or whether they want to be married.

I wrote the book with women in mind, because I understand women probably better than men, being a woman myself, although I think the book can be helpful to men and women, whether they’re married or single.

And another reason, I was thinking about why I wrote the book is, I wrote it the way I wrote it, because I love words. I love word games. And this idea came into me that there’s so much information about how to date constructively and to create a great marriage and how do you put it all together?

So I combined my love of words with my desire to do something very thorough. I am a thorough perfectionist type person, for better or worse. So I made the book in order of the alphabet where it’s like “A” is for “attitude,” “A” is for “anxiety, “A” is for “awesome,” to remember you are, and going through the alphabet and having maybe an average of a page or two, sometimes less, sometimes more, on each entry that’s under each letter.

There’s Chapter A has four or five entries underneath it. I mentioned a couple of them. So I don’t know if I’ve explained that too well, but that’s the basic structure of the book. It’s going through the alphabet and talking about what it’s going to make for a good constructive dating experience that leads to a fulfilling marriage that’s fulfilling emotionally and spiritually, as well as financially and physically.

Jodi: I do think that the structure of the book is quite clever. You organized it into four sections and, like you just said, each section is structured like a dictionary with terms that relate to the topic of each section and the book has quotes in it, illustrations throughout, some introspective exercises for readers to do in these four sections.

I’m curious why you called out each of those specifically, especially the first and the third ones, as part of what one needs to be focused on as you move towards a lasting loving marriage. Could you explain that a bit, please?

Marcia: Oh, yeah. Thank you for asking that, Jodi, because I think this is important for people to know about. The first section is called “Overcoming Obstacles.” Many women are afraid to date or afraid to even go out and meet people because they have these attitudes that are getting in their way. For example, under “A” is for “attitude,” I list a number of attitudes that we can call them obstacles, or we can call them obstacle illusions, and they are illusions like oh, “I’m not going to go to meet man, because all the good men are married” or “I’m not going to go to this event or try online dating because they all want a younger woman or a thinner woman or a smarter woman or a richer woman.”

We put all these ideas that we could put in our head that are holding us back. So, I addressed them in that section and also other ones like if people are anxious, just anxious that they’re not going to say the right thing on a date or, or they’ll say too much, or they won’t be liked for one reason or another. All these are obstacles to confront and to move past so that you can move on and start having a successful dating relationship.

The second section is about constructive dating and I think the third section that you wanted to hear more about is committing. Is that right?

Jodi: Yes. “Committing,” because it’s comes before marriage in your sequence.

Marcia: So the “Committing” section, that’s a crucial point. You date for a while and then, how long do you want a date? When do you know that you’re ready to move up to the next level? And it’s different for different people.

I know I say everybody should have their own timetable, but I do encourage people to take ideally at least six months before deciding that I want this to lead to marriage because infatuation might have you going for three months and then maybe three months or longer to just see how you get along. Once you’ve passed the initial “woo woo” time and finding out whether you have enough of the important factors that will contribute to a good marriage and whether you respected by each other, et cetera, et cetera, enough common values and interests and having conversations about what you are looking for in marriage. If you’re young enough to know whether you want to have children or not, or what?

I actually encourage people to find that out really early, because you don’t want to spend a long time dating somebody who has different goals from you. But they’ll still be the logical questions. Like how are we going to handle money? And how do we decide where we’re going on vacations?

Just things that you can find out, whether you’re going to basically be able to agree on enough that you’ll feel satisfied with the person for the long haul.

Jodi: Exactly. Tell us a little bit about your dating journey, please.

Marcia: Oh, I dated a lot of really nice man. They were not necessarily appropriate for me in terms of background and values, always, but I had basically pretty nice dating experiences. However, my pattern was to push away anybody who hinted at wanting to be serious with me and to go after the non-committal types, to the point where my friend’s husband — when I was starting to tell my friend the latest story about some guy who I liked but didn’t seem like he wanted to get serious — her husband finished the sentence.

So then I realized I had a pattern and I didn’t do anything about it right away. But eventually I did get some good therapy and also some good mentoring and at a certain point.

I realized that and I guess the backstory is, as you mentioned, my parents were divorced and I witnessed the pain that we all felt around the divorce. So unconsciously, I probably was afraid that I would not succeed at marriage or that I would be abandoned or whatever was going on there kept me from getting committed to anybody.

Jodi: And then it became your life’s passion and mission eventually to, to help people to get past their challenges, if they have them.

Marcia: Yeah. Although I was doing couples therapy, way, way before I got married. I was the expert at the agency where I was working at the time, because I just love doing it. And I had received some very good training.

I thought it was amazing that I had the pattern. Then I found out how common it was. So, there, I was having this, what do I call it “Going nowhere relationships with men.” And yet I was helping people to create better marriages and other relationships. So, that was just kind of ironic for me.

Jodi: It is, but hey, that’s where you were at that stage of your life. You were able to help them and you need a counseling yourself.

Marcia: You’re right. We can’t be objective about our own lives. So it’s not really that strange. But it’s just, a lot of people think, “A therapist, she must have it all together.” But we’re all human beings. It’s more that we know how to conceptualize our issues maybe, but it’s not that we don’t have them.

Jodi: Understood. Yes, we all have issues. Every person walking this planet has some issues.

Marcia: Yeah.

Jodi: In your book, you write that “Every good marriage is a miracle.” Why do you regard good marriages as miracles?

Marcia: So I think we might be able to call this a miracle that we have two people who have some similarities and some differences, and it’s very easy to think this person is not right for me because he likes to watch a different TV show from me or root for a different baseball team or whatever.

You know, these are really trivial things, but maybe some things that are bigger, but don’t have to be deal breakers. But you can get to the people and let’s face it. We all basically have to have some selfishness in order to survive to do what’s good for us. But then to get into union where you’re with somebody and you can have differences and yet thrive on the differences and grow together to where you’re feeling like you have a true partner in the world and you’re there for each other through thick and thin.

It’s not always deliriously happy. Life has it ups and downs. Relationships have ups and downs, but you have the kind of commitment that you value, what you have enough that you’re going to do, whatever it takes to keep it thriving.

Jodi: And when that all comes together, it’s a miracle. That makes sense.

I read that you advise women who want to be in a relationship, and I presume this pertains to women who want to get married and don’t want to get married. They just want a long-term partner. You advise them to create three lists. Can you walk us through what those lists are?

Marcia: I’d love to. The first list is “What are you looking for in a partner?” What traits do you value and want in a partner? Write anything you want. It could be physical. It could be spiritual, emotional, values, interests, whatever is really important to you. I’m going to go back to this list. I’ll tell you each list first, and then we’ll go back to explain it more.

I think I said 10 for the first list. You know, you can make a number, any number you want, but I think 10 is a nice, simple number.

And then the second list is 10 traits or characteristics or things that you can contribute to the relationship that’s likely to be valued by your potential or future partner.

And then the third list is five characteristics about yourself that might call for a little improvement in the mind of your partner or yourself. Areas where you can grow.

Now, the first list we go back to and separate “what’s a want” and “what’s a need?” Does he really have to be over six feet tall for you to be happy? Is it more important? We mentioned kindness already. Should kindness be on there? Is it more important that he have some creative passion or is it more important that he’d be emotionally stable. Pick out what you really need so that, you know, what’s the main things are okay.

Then the second one is what you have to offer. And that’s really, really important. Some women don’t have the self-esteem to realize what valuable treasures they are for the right person.

And then the third list is to recognize you’re talking about the perfect partner, so it’s a good idea to have some humility. That you have room to grow, and maybe this will help you recognize that we all have room to grow, including a partner.

And some things will change. Some things will not change, but again, everybody needs to know what are the deal breakers and what are the things that you can learn to live with and accept?

Jodi: That is a really tremendous exercise because it puts the person in the place of really thinking long and hard about what she thinks she wants and what she really needs in this person who she has yet to meet.

And then she turns the mirror on herself and looks at what she brings to a partnership, both from the perspective of a lot of wonderful characteristics and assets and all the beauty that she has within and outside of herself. And then where are the areas that she can maybe improve overtime to be even a better partner down the line?

Marcia: It’s all about growth.

Jodi: Yes, it seems like it’s all about growth and it’s all about knowing yourself as much as anything else.

Marcia: And, accepting yourself: the good, the ugly, you know, everything. But altogether it should feel like I have self-esteem. I deserve to have a good marriage and I don’t expect myself to be perfect. We all have imperfections. And I have many wonderful traits too.

Jodi: So if you’ve put together the first list and you’ve got those 10 needs listed out, how do you know how many boxes need to be checked for that person that you meet to really be that right partner for you?

Marcia: It’s pretty amazing how often, once we make the list, we find somebody who fits it pretty well. A realistic list. You know, it doesn’t have to be Brad Pitt on the list, but a real, a realistic list. I think when we know what we really want, we kind of screen out what we don’t want.

Jodi: And we moved towards that.

Marcia: I think that there really is something to that, that we went when we know what we want. Very clearly it comes to us.

Jodi: I thought I knew what I wanted and I put that list together and I put it away. And that person did not show up.  (Laughter)

Marcia: Oh, that’s interesting. Was it a good list?

Jodi: It was too long. It was way too long

Marcia: How many?

Jodi: Oh my gosh. It was like a page and a half. This was when I was in my mid-thirties and I just. Super long list. And it did not lead me to my person at that time.

I’m not saying it wasn’t a worthwhile exercise. I think part of it was that it was way too long.

Marcia: Oh yeah. It could also be a readiness factor, you know, when you’re not ready yet.

I know someone else who said, though, she had a list and she’s been married, like, I don’t know, 40, 50 years. And she didn’t want anyone to smoke. There turned out her husband smoked, but she still married him. So, you know, people know what is a deal breaker.

Jodi: Yes.

Marcia: And everything on your list. Doesn’t have to be a deal breaker.

Jodi: Very true. So I, I think it’s a terrific tool. How often do you suggest people revisit their lists? Because we are changing beings, Right?

We’ve all changed over this past year with the pandemic. Right? We’re all different than we were at the start of 2020.

Jodi: We are all gauging our process of finding a partner in a different manner.

Marcia: Right.

Jodi: Yeah.

Marcia: That’s a lot of it is knowing yourself and what’s going to be valuable for you to do. And as you go through the process of knowing who you are and what you truly need to be happy.

Jodi: Marcia, you have a therapy practice. You run marriage meetings. You’ve got “Married with Confidence “workshops. You’re now out with your second book. You are a busy woman with a lot to offer! Where can listeners go to learn more about you, to buy your book and to get in touch?

Marcia: Okay, so you can go to my website, MarriageMeetings.com to find out a lot about what I do and about my books and therapy. And you can subscribe to my free newsletter about marriage and relationships and communications. That’s on the home page of my website. And both of my books are available on Amazon and also probably it might be in your bookstore depending where you are. You can ask for it from your bookstore. And you can call me or email me if you want. And that’s all on my website also.

Jodi: Lots of ways to get in touch with you and lots of great information and guidance and wisdom for you to share with people. Thank you, Marcia for talking with me this episode about all things, marriage-minded. I’ve really enjoyed having you on the podcast.

Marcia: Oh, thank you so much, Jodi. I’ve enjoyed being here and appreciate your invitation.

The post Special Episode: Marriage Minded Dating appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Hello, Erin! Thank you so much for coming on this episode to recount a memorable first state story with me.

Erin: Happy to be here.

Jodi: I am really happy to have you on the show. I know this is going to be a lot of fun.  I always like to start an episode with a guest, by having the guest give an overview of her backstory so that listeners kind of get a feel for the storyteller. Could you please share some details about yourself?

Erin: Sure. Well, my name’s Erin. I’m a joke teller. I do stand-up comedy for 20 years now. I also write for TV, which is probably a different type of guest than your listeners are usually listing too.

But yeah, I’ve sort of made it a career. I started when, in my twenties. I’m in my forties. I started out in New York city for about 10 years which I loved, absolutely loved every single day I spent in New York. And then about 13 years ago, I moved out to LA. I’m still doing up, but yeah, then sort of got into TV, writing the last four or five years.

So I worked on a show “One Day at a Time” and then the world collapsed and now we’re just trying to get back into another room writing. But basically that’s the scenario. I just made a profession of telling jokes and somehow it worked out. So, that’s it in a nutshell.

Jodi: We have needed people like you so much this past year and a half plus! Oh my goodness! I like to say that a day without laughter is a day wasted.

Erin: Oh yeah. Well, we’re going to be friends then. I can’t imagine not laughing. Everything is just, every single day it’s like something happens. You’re like, huh? How would I ever get through this small moment without just dying, laughing, because it’s life is too hard and overwhelming?

Jodi: So true. So true. Laughter is more important now than ever. It’s so healing right?

From what I understand, the story you’re going to share is going to take us back in time and then to current day. Take us back to when this first happened. What year was it?

Erin: It was 2004. I don’t know if anybody remembers 2004? (Laughter) Although I think as I get older now I just go, “Time is flying. Time is flying.” I think that’s what you start saying when you turn 40. I think it just automatically just falls out of your mouth. You just go, “Wait, is the holidays again?” I’m 80 apparently. (Laughter)  

Jodi: It’s whiplash! It’s like every year is whiplash.

Erin: Yes! So yeah, 2004, I was living in Manhattan. And I had just come out of a three year relationship with my partner at the time. It was like my first kind of substantial relationship after figuring out I was gay.

So it was kind of monumental and huge. I think everyone’s first kind of like, you know, serious partners is always memorable. But when you’re gay, it’s like doubly important. Like our parents met each other. It was kind of pretty huge. It was like maybe like a month after that breakup.

So it felt like a little soon, but I was really into her and I was just thrilled to be on it. We planned a dinner date and I was thrilled to be going on it.

Jodi: Okay. How did the two of you meet? Who is this person and what’s her name?

Erin: Her name is Sara. We have some mutual friends. Yeah. Like kind of friends of friends.

I had known her, but not very well. I knew who she was. I’d probably gone out….We had our mutual friend, Jen. So I’d seen her a couple of times. I’m sure we were in the same bar one night. So I, I did know her. Not very well, but fairly well,

Jodi: Fairly well, like have a long conversation type, know her or fairly well, like, “Hi, how you doing?” walk by, know her.

Erin: Oh, definitely, stop and talk. Yeah, I remember being out with my partner at the time and we saw her at a bar and we stopped and chatted. Not close friends, but friendly and always excited to see her. And, but, you know, maybe honestly three or four times before broke up with my person. I knew her enough that I was really interested in her and I wanted to go on a day with her for sure

Jodi: Then how did the date come to be?

Erin: I think we had seen each other out maybe like a couple of weeks before that. And so we just sort of started texting and so then we just decided, okay, let’s do this, let’s go out to dinner. So it was just, it wasn’t really awkward. Like it just, it felt like, oh, well this could be something. It could be not.

I wasn’t really sure because I had this sort of epic breakup. So part of me was like…you know, I was young…so part of me was like, this is probably not a good idea. But I just wanted to…. I think I was just really sad for a long time and this was exciting and fun and it just…I just remember that feeling of, this is probably not the smartest move, but I just wanted to feel joy, you know? And so I just kind of went for it.

Jodi: Makes sense. You were coming from a dark place. You wanted some light, you wanted some fun and you wanted, at some level, you wanted a new beginning.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. And my partner of three years was wonderful. My family loved her. We’re still in touch. She’s just like such a wonderful person. So it was doubly sad because we were just kind of just, you know…it just kind of petered out. I was just really banged up about it.

So yeah. I should have been like, okay, you got to wait like X amount of time, you know? But when you’re in your twenties, you’re like, “This sounds great. I’m just going to do.”

Jodi: Absolutely! That’s what your twenties is for, at least the first part of your twenties. (Laughter) Okay. So the evening rolls around, take us through what happens please.

Erin: Well, sometimes in standup you exaggerate, but I am not exaggerating. I was in Chelsea and she was in the West Village. We picked this really cute dinner spot, like cute, small romantic, and I’m in the West Village.

And I’m legit, like nervous sitting down because I honestly hadn’t gone out on a lot of dates before I met my girlfriend. So it, it felt like I was just like, Gay again for the first time, you know what I mean? Cause I hadn’t been, like, I was sort of like, oh, I’m gay, and then went into a relationship.

So this just kind of felt like doubly new and I just remember being really nervous. And because I was really nervous, I ordered really….you’ll understand why I ordered this…really plain food because I already have a bad stomach. I remember just getting a really plain salad and a veggie pasta, just like the plainest things on the menu.

And she ordered — and I’ll never forget this because I was literally making fun of her the entire meal — she ordered Fried Cod Balls. (Laughter) As an appetizer! I cannot make this up Fried Cod Balls and her pasta, because it was an Italian place, was Wild Boar Ragout!

Jodi: Oh my gosh, what a meal! (Laughter)

Erin: Yeah. And she’s also just like so healthy. Wow. That is a choice on our first date. Like, she’s just like, she just can eat anything.

Jodi: Right! She has a steel stomach.

Erin: I just remember being like, wow, that is like double down on the rando, you know? And I’m like I’ll have one piece of lettuce and one vegetable wrapped in a piece of pasta. (Laughter)

Jodi: You’re having  the Melba toast type meal and she’s going full on variety. Wow! Okay. So there was certainly a difference in choice when it came to food. How was the conversation and how was the rapport between the two of you?

Erin: It was wonderful. It was great. I just remember having like, such a great time.

I was teasing her nonstop about her food choices. Yeah. I just remember just feeling like, just relieved that it was going well, and she’s so easy to talk to and super interesting. And yeah, as I said, I was just really sad for a really long time. So I was definitely energized and excited and wasn’t sure where, or if this was going to go anywhere, I just remember being really happy in the moment for sure.

Jodi: That is the best sort of memory to have, right? Thinking about a moment in time and then you’re filled with happiness?

Erin: Yeah.

Jodi: You two have this wonderful rapport at dinner. The date is going really well. Take us through what happens next, please.

Erin: Okay. This is where it goes real south. So we wrap up the dinner and it’s great. Beautiful night in the West Village. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to there. It’s just a dreamboat of a place. So we’re walking through these streets and I had lived two blocks away from there for a very long time on Cornelius Street.

And all of a sudden I was not feeling well. (Laughter) My internal temperature just was like nuclear reactor. And I was like, “This isn’t, no it’s fine.” I just got real sweaty. I just remember being like, what is this? And so we walked down a couple of blocks and we’re chatting and I can’t even concentrate. Cause I’m like, something is wrong.

I do have kind of a crappy stomach. So my deli that I had known, cause I lived two blocks away from there. I was like, I’m just going to jump into this deli. And I remember saying to her “Hey, I’ll be right out. I you know, I just wanted to say hi to this guy. I haven’t seen him in a while.” Because New York delis, the people become like your family.

So you’re in and out of a deli every like 30 seconds. So I go in and I grabbed Tums and I grab a water and I’m saying hi to him. But also my back is turned to her, cause she’s like outside the deli and I’m like, literally throwing Tums down and I’m just chewing as many Tums as possible, chasing it with water. Then I go outside the deli and I’m like, that should take care of it.

Jodi: You overdosed on Tums at that moment. (Laughter)

Erin: Yeah. So I was like, I was really hoping like, you know, that would be it, but, you know, as fate would have it that wasn’t it.

So we’re walking through the West Village and I’m getting worse. I’m like, how do I do this? So I was like, okay, just keep going. And so everything’s kind of like within walking distance, her apartment is in the West Village is walking distance and we’re going up, I think she was on Greenwich or something.

We’re going up Greenwich. And I legitimately feel like I’m going to throw up. Like I have to tell her like, what’s happening. I was like, “I’m so sorry.” Like I know her, but I don’t know her know her. And I’m sweating profusely. I also thought, I can’t like walk more like, you know what I mean? So she’s like, “Well, my apartment’s right here. Do you want to go up and just like, sit down, have some water.” And I was like, “Yes!”

Jodi: Is she looking at you in distress? Is she looking at you wondering what’s going on? Is she noticing what’s happening?

Erin: Oh yeah.

Jodi: Because you’re trying to be all coy about it. I think at some point, at least earlier on.

Erin: Totally. And also like charming. This is our first date! I was like, this is going well, maybe we’ll get dessert, we’ll get a glass of wine or whatever. We’ll go to a second location, not her bathroom in her apartment. (Laughter)

So we go up the stairs, and sit down and it just like, it hit me. I was like, “you have to excuse me.” I go into the bathroom and I get violently ill, like violently ill! The type of sick where you’re like, you have to be home in your pajamas, in a safe space. You know what I mean? Like you’re ugly. Like it’s ugly! The only time it would be okay to be with someone is if you were an old married couple and like, you were like, “Oh, well this one’s it’s, it’s coming out.” It’s just, let’s just put it this way. It was not good.

Jodi: Oh, wow. So that is really brutal.  Here you are. You’re with this woman you want to get to know. You’re putting on all the charm and meanwhile, you’re saying you get up to her place and you start losing it literally. Oh my gosh! What was Sara doing while this was happening?

Erin: She was amazing, trying to do everything. I think at the beginning I was like, Don’t come in the bathroom!” This is insane!

Jodi: What are you thinking as this is happening yet?

Erin: I’m over the tub throwing up. So basically I was just like throwing up. So she then comes in and she’s putting the cold compress on my head… Well, she had Fried Cod Balls and Wild Boar Ragout just as a reminder listeners! I had a piece of lettuce and I am a hurling!

And so, this is how we spend the night. I could not leave her apartment. I slept over on the bed. Then I just finally stopped getting sick and shivering on the bed. I slept in her bed. And she was taking care of me. (Laughter)

Jodi: Oh my goodness. Wow.. What an evening never saw that you never saw coming!

Erin: Yup. I didn’t either. It’s never happened since there has never been any. Yeah, it just, it was, insane. Yeah, it was just, it was crazy.

I woke up the next morning and I was like, I need to get out of here. (Laughter) I just remember being like, I can’t get out of this apartment quick enough and it’s not because like, it didn’t go well. Like I wanted to see her again, but I was like mortified also.

I did not feel well at all. The next morning I basically ran out of her apartment, grabbed a cab, went back to my apartment and got sick the whole day in my place. But I just remember being like, this is not the morning after..

Jodi: …or the night you wanted either. Wow! The first date had this residual the next day for you, because you were still getting rid of what you put into your body.

Erin: Yeah, I was supposed to be performing. I had a college show on Friday night and another college show on Saturday night, two different colleges in Pennsylvania, and I was supposed to rent a car Friday and drive and do those gigs, And I couldn’t.  

Jodi: Was this Thursday?

Erin: That was a Thursday night. Yeah, so Friday had to cancel my show and then Saturday, she wound up calling. This is how nice she is. She checks on me on Friday and I’m like, “I had to cancel my gig.” And these, by the way, these gigs, they paid a lot of money and canceling was an inconceivable because when you’re starting out doing stand up and you do a college gig, it’s like, it probably paid like $1,500.

But back in the day, That felt like 15 grand, you know? So it was horrible that I had to cancel on Friday. But this is how nice she was. Saturday morning, I still felt terrible, but I was okay. She rented a car, picked me up and drove to Pennsylvania so I could do the college gig.

Jodi: She did?

Erin: Yep!

Jodi: Wow!

Erin: Isn’t that amazing?

Jodi: That is amazing! You got to totally stick in her apartment in her bathroom. And she, instead of being so turned off by the whole thing, like doubled down and went further on into it with you to help you out. That’s incredible!

Erin: Yeah, I know.

Jodi: That’s really something. That says a lot about her.

Erin: For sure. Yeah. She’s a rock star. Yeah. I just couldn’t believe it. I was like, I can’t believe she reached out, you know what I mean? When you’re getting sick, you’re literally at your ugliest. You know, it’s something you don’t want to share with for a very, very long time or literally ever!

Jodi: Ever! (Laughter)

Erin: You know, maybe that’s like a bonding experience in year seven, not on date night one!

Jodi: For sure! Where did things go with Sara from there?

Erin: So we wound up dating for about three months and it was wonderful.

I honestly like, I, I was really into her. It was going really well. The only issue was this at, like, you know, around three months you sort of have to like go all in or all out. You know what I mean? There’s like kind of that time period where you just know, okay, this is headed..this is like the point where you’re like, I need to be in love with this person, or like, it’s not going to work type of thing just to keep going.

And I always knew, like, she like the type of person where you commit this isn’t something. You take lightly or you’re just like, oh, it’ll be a fling or a bit, you know what I mean? She’s such a substantial person and I just couldn’t do it because I had just gotten out of that three year relationship.

And I just felt like I couldn’t, you know, like I really just couldn’t commit and put everything that I needed to put in. And I just realized I just was kind of cracking and I just needed to be alone. So we broke up. We kind of broke it off and I just remember being like super, really, really bummed out about it because she was perfect. I just, the timing was just absolutely terrible.

A couple months later, I remember trying to call her to try to sort of get her back and she had started dating someone. And that was it. And then I was single for quite a while because I really needed to be. And so I, it was a good decision at the time.

It was just excruciating because there was sort of nothing wrong. I just knew I just, when you have it in you, you have it in you. And if you don’t, you don’t. So that was it. We broke up and yeah, that sort of ended that chapter.

Jodi: From what you’re saying, I’m taking away, not only did you need time to be taken care of you and figure out where you were at, but it kind of seems as though you didn’t feel like you could be fully present for her and be all who she deserved and be able to give her everything that she should have with you in a relationship. Is that an accurate read?

Erin: I mean a hundred percent you make some dumb decisions with relationships in your life. I certainly have. But I knew with her, you either go a hundred percent or you don’t, you know what I mean? Like, it wouldn’t be like fair. Like she’s, she’s like an All Star.

She’s like A+. You know what I mean? Like you don’t, you don’t just kind of casually date her. You can casually date people, but not her. She’s like the full package, you know what I mean? So she deserves like a hundred percent of someone and I just couldn’t do it. And I knew it. I was so bummed out, but I was like, I cannot mess…I was, I was heading down where I was going to be disappointing her and not giving her what she needs.  I could see it coming. And I was like, I feel like if I cut it off now, like we can still be. In touch and it won’t be awful. It’ll just be sad for a little bit. And so that’s sort of where we left it.

Jodi: It was a gesture of love, what you did.

Erin: Well let’s just say I’ve handled a lot of things poorly in my life, but I tried at that moment to do the best I could, because I just was like obsessed with her. You know what I mean? I felt like as painful as it was, I did do the right thing. And there were many times where I did the wrong thing. So yeah, in….

Jodi: In the years after.

Erin: Oh Yes. Yes. So many epic fails. We don’t have enough time…

Jodi: …and we won’t go into them right now. But we’ve all had epic fails, I think in relationships. So you’re not alone in that.  

Now fast forward us to more recent times and let’s pick up the story.

Erin:  The fast forwarding is I saw her a couple times before I left Manhattan. She was dating someone. It was just like “Hi’s” here and there, but just always just like her biggest fan. And then I’ve done a lot, a ton of traveling with standup. And she lived, she wound up living in Portland for about five years.

So I saw her in Portland probably, 2011, 2012. We did have one night of romance in 2011 or 2012, but then, you know, I was in LA and she was in Portland. But we sort of just kind of always stayed in touch loosely. And then in 2017, she had moved back to New York City. I was performing in New York City. Our mutual friend brought her out to a show. And we reconnected basically in June of 2017.

That whole summer I was back and forth, trying to convince her to date me. She was like, “No.” And then she was dealing with kind of a relationship. I was kind of in and out of something. And then basically January of 2018, I put like a full court press.

It was really cold in Manhattan. And I was like, “It’s so beautiful in LA, just come out here for a weekend.: So I couldn’t believe it. But she said, “Yes.” So late February of 2018, she came out and stayed with me for a weekend. We had like the greatest time ever! And we’ve been together ever since.

Jodi: Wow! You two really had a lot of touch points through the years and you realized this woman was for you and you wanted to have her in your life. And it took bad weather in New York to ultimately push her to come on out and see you “anew.” What was that second first date, shall we say, like when she came out to LA and in 2018? Did you get, did you take her out? Did you guys go out one night for an official first date out? Take us through that.

Erin: Yeah. She came out, so we, we went to….I had tickets to see a show, so I was like, all right, we’ll do dinner.

And then we’ll see the show. And we had a glass of wine. It’s something like four or something because it was Saturday and it was beautiful outside and we were just talking and talking. Then we had another glass of wine. And then we just had like an appetizer or something that we came back to my house at like six.

And we realized that we didn’t want to go cause you’re just chatting also, like now two glasses of wine really gets to me and she was just like, “I can’t go out.” So we never went to dinner or went to the concert. We just holed up and watched a movie. It felt like we had been dating for like 10 years. It was incredibly sweet.

But the next day I was like, okay, I’ve got to do something. So we went to the beach the next day, cause I was like, I have to give her the full California. So we went to a beautiful beach in LA and I took her out to this awesome fish taco place right in in Malibu. And we just had the best day ever.

But Saturday night was also epically sweet because we’re old enough and had known each other for enough time of like, “Do we want to even back out?” And we were like, “No.” I think she like literally fell asleep, watching a movie. It was just something really adorable.

Jodi: You two were comfortable together from the start of the second round of you being together. So in 14 years, how had you changed when it came to relationship?

Erin: I think I had changed quite a lot. I think I was just really at the point in my life where I really wanted to settle down. I had been dating a couple other people long distance because just the nature of my work I had met people in San Francisco and Vegas. I don’t know. It was just a lot of moving around. It was a lot of, kind of life in motion and roller coaster. And then when I got into like the TV writing worlds, I was, I don’t know, I just felt older. I wanted to work during the day I wanted to get off the road.

And so it was just kind of what I wanted to do, sort of really helped push me into the area of wanting to settle down with someone. And, and it was crazy because she was in New York and I was in LA. So we did do long distance for two years, but it was with her and she had a very flexible job. So she’d meet me in different cities for shows.

But there was something that just changed in me that I was like, oh, I am all in. I’d felt like I was ready to be all in with someone, but then when I reconnected with her, I was like, oh my God. It was just like, you know, when people are like, oh, when you know, you know, when you’re like, Ugh, whatever, I hate that expression so much! But I really felt like it’s true.

Jodi: Right? It’s an old adage that is annoying as heck until you experience it. And then it becomes your truth.

Erin: Yeah, it’s something I’ve definitely made fun of on stage for probably a decade. And then I had to eat my words. It’s hard to explain, but there is something that just like, I just kind of felt like I crossed over and I was like, oh, it’s her and I will literally do anything. I mean, the amount of cleaning I do, like, like literally I, I literally was like, I’ll do anything like anything. And that’s when I feel like, you know. I had a felt like I sort of had those moments in 2004, but our lives were just so different. And I for sure don’t think we would have,,,, something would have happened.

because I was really immature and my whole career was stand up. And so strangely enough, the, the terrible timing really worked out.

Jodi: I love that “doing anything” in your mind is cleaning. (Laughter)

Erin: Being neat, organized, knowing where stuff is, these are my worst traits. And now I’m like, well yeah.

Jodi: If you do the math 2018, two years long distance takes us to 2020 when the two of you must’ve come together and lived together somewhere based on how you just set this up. So we all know what 2020 turned out to be, and that timing was really quite something! Share how that all transpired, please.

Erin: Yeah. You know, just like we planned it, (Laughter) You know, we planned to move in together on February 1st, 2020, and then we planned 30 days later to be just under epic lockdown for, well over a year. That was insane! But so thankful.

My job is here for X amount of years so she was kind of over New York City anyway. So I’ve convinced her – I tricked her –  into moving to LA. It’s like a joke. I say. It’s like, when you’re in a long distance relationship, you always go, “God, I wish we had some more times. I wish I wish that’s an extra dates together.” And then yeah, ALL of them…

Jodi: …and more!

Erin: And more! So that’ll test your relationship.

Jodi: Yeah. But you were just talking about this relationship and it’s now 2021. So you and Sara have navigated your way through that intense time together.

Erin: Yeah, she is a gold medalist. If you can go under, if you can be in lockdown with the out of work stand-up comic, you deserve a gold medal and like a lifetime supply of dates to the spa, which I will be paying for. (Laughter)

No. She was amazing. I, we were both saying the whole time, like what if we had been doing the long distance? And honestly it was great. I mean, the world was collapsing and this person that I had been obsessed with for so long was in my house and she couldn’t go anywhere. (Laughter) It was pretty….honestly, it was really great.

Jodi: That is, that is one way to look at it for sure, and a positive one. Well, Erin, you’ve been on quite a journey here to get you to this place with Sara. I’m curious what you learned about dating from your years of dating. Any sort of like summary takeaway that you’d have for listeners, advice wise, would be great

Erin: Well, I definitely made a lot of mistakes along the way, but I have to say now looking back, it’s like, you have to make them. You have to, you have to have some real epic failures. Because, you know, it’s the only way you learn and for me it was just kind of a late bloomer. And I think it’s probably the, the gay thing.

Like most people, I feel like…..let’s just say, straight people….they start dating when they’re like, I don’t know, in high school and 15 or 16. So by the time you his 30 or 35 I feel like you’ve worked at a lot of kinks. But for me, it was like mid-to-late twenties where I just started sort of dating and, you know, Irish, Catholic family, no communication skills.

You push all your feelings down until your ankles give out. I was a hot mess for like a while, you know? So I’m just going to apologize to everybody I’ve ever dated here, publicly on your podcast. But you know, it’s just one of these things where you just feel like, oh my God, you’re never going to meet someone.

You have so much kind of heartache along the way. Then you’re just kind of gathering all these skills and what to do and what not to do and what works and what doesn’t work. And, and then, I think hopefully everyone has that chance where you meet this person and you go, as I said, it’s just sort of like a switch flipped, right?

Jodi: It all flipped on its head.

Erin: You know what? Yeah. You know what I mean? Something clicks over and you go, oh, everything I’ve ever done in, you know, in my life, everyone I’ve ever dated — and I’m not exaggerating — every moment has sort of led me here. Now don’t screw this up!

And I needed all those experiences to kind of learn and to get me where I’m at today. Now it just becomes, the work becomes every day, trying to keep her, (Laughter) in a non-creepy “I’ve got a van type of way.” Just try to be the best partner you can be.

Jodi: You had an epiphany really at some point that all of those challenges screw ups and positive things that happen in relationships along the way to this point in time were meant to happen, so you could be in this relationship with Sara as the woman you are.

Erin: There’s a lot of, we’ve all experienced this. Like there’s, there’s a lot of highs. And then there’s just, I think when it comes to like matters of the heart, there’s like epic lows, you know? And you go, how am I going to get through this?

I remember thinking, breaking up with someone before her being like, I know that person wasn’t right for me, but I just remember just getting older and being like, “Wow, you know, if I ever meet someone, I’m going to be, I’m going to feel like I’m not going to take it for granted.” I just remember thinking that I will not take this for granted because I know how painful these breakups are and these experiences are.

And you know, you have to have these moments. Now when I’m with Sara, I don’t take it for granted cause I know the other side. But if you have to go through it, you can’t really see that when you’re in the mud face down in a bottle of Pinot Grigio in a corner of a bar.

Jodi: You cannot, but you got that perspective. You just shared that perspective that takes a heck of a long time to accumulate in life.

Erin: Yeah. I mean, some people like out of the gates, they’re like I met my person. I’m twenty-two and you’re like, “Great Claire! Fantastic!”

That was not my journey. So I’m very happy that hopefully this is the happy ending, but it took a village, as they say,

Jodi: It’s a stellar story. Thank you for sharing it. It’s a story about being ready for love. It’s a story about second chances, and it’s a story about being true to yourself and being fully ready for the person who you are forming and creating and going forward in life with. So thank you for coming on this episode to share that journey with me and with the listeners. It’s been a lot of fun to talk it through.

Erin: Yeah, well, you’re so easy to talk to. And if you ever get a chance to have a combination of Fried Cod Balls and Wild Boar Ragout, I guess jump in? (Laughter)

Jodi: I will keep that in mind, but I don’t think I’m going to do it because I have your type of stomach. (Laughter)

Erin: It’s just really fun and sweet to think about this story and how it began to where it’s now. So thanks for letting me share it.

Jodi: Absolutely. It’s been great.

The post Erin and Sara appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Hello, Olivia, thank you for coming back onto the podcast.

Olivia:. Thank you, Jodi. It’s great to be here.

Jodi: I am excited to be talking to you again. It has been two and a half years since we recorded the Olivia and Max episode. A lot has happened in the world, certainly in those two and a half years, and clearly a lot has happened in your life as well.

When we left off. You were 10 months into a relationship with Max. He was relocating from Germany and he was moving in with you. That you’re back on the podcast to share a story about another first date means that your relationship with Max must have come to a close. Please catch us up on what happened.

Olivia: Sure. And you’re right to say that a lot has happened in the last couple of years. Uh, both in my life and for everyone else. Max was a very special person. We met in an unusual way. We managed to overcome a lot of obstacles in terms of dating internationally. And he indeed moved in with me shortly after our podcast here in the city.

It was really wonderful for a while. But as many of your listeners probably know as well, living with someone is a real eye opener. And you start to understand if your habits are compatible, your lifestyles are compatible in a way that it’s impossible to know before you lived together.

While Max and I had a very special connection in many ways, it did become clear to me as our relationship went on living together that he was not “the one.” And it was actually, you know, it’s difficult to say this, but in retrospect it was actually my mistake that I didn’t admit that to myself and to him earlier.

And so the relationship went on for about another 10 months living together. Most of the day-to-day was really nice and no conflict or anything obvious, but my heart just was starting to tell me this just isn’t quite right. Unfortunately, it did progress to the point where he proposed to get married.

And that was sort of the breaking point that I needed to be able to tell him that it was not the right relationship for either one of us. And that was a very difficult time. Obviously very difficult for him, but also for me. And it was a lot of, there was a lot of self-realization going on where I recognized that I had been a little bit too passive, which is not in my nature normally, but that I had been a bit too passive in the relationship in terms of really admitting that it wasn’t the right thing.

That was a rough period, but ultimately it was absolutely for the best, both for him and for me. And we did part our ways. He moved back to Germany. Didn’t want to, but I think that since then, he has most likely realized he is better off searching for that special person who wants to be with him no matter what.

Jodi: I can imagine. It must’ve been the most challenging of times for both of you.

Olivia: Certainly was, it was, and it took quite a bit of courage, I think on both our parts to do the hard thing, which was not to just say “Yes, okay. This is pretty good.” And you know we’re lucky to have found a compatible partner. The easy thing would have been for me to just say “yes” and to realize that he was a very good person. We could have been pretty happy together. But I knew, and I’ve always known, that “pretty happy” was not enough for me and I needed to be unconditionally happy. And so I hope that he’s better off. I think he is. I’m certainly better off as well.

Jodi: We need to find that right partner. If you’re not with that right partner, ultimately you are not going to be able to be the best person you can be. The relationship isn’t going to be the right relationship that either of you want, and it may not go the distance.

Olivia: Exactly! Exactly! So I’m glad that I did not compromise. And I think ultimately he is probably glad or will be glad that he did not, or that I did not compromise as well.

Jodi: Thank you for, for sharing that. And I know that probably wasn’t the easiest thing to reflect upon. Some of our listeners have not heard the “Olivia and Max” episode yet, but now they know a little bit about it. But what they don’t know much about is you and your backstory. Would you share a bit about yourself, professionally in terms of things you like to do, a little bit about other aspects of your life, so that people get a sense of who you are?

Olivia: Yes, of course. I work in Global Health. My work has primarily focused on HIV and malaria and other infectious diseases. Been on the research side, but more qualitative research, not lab research, for example. And I’ve also worked within those areas within HIV and malaria from a program development point of view and a policy point of view.

So I have jumped around a lot within Global Health, but practically with a focus on a couple of different disease areas. And what I love about my work is that it takes me all over the world. Or at least it did before COVID. My biggest passion in the world is traveling. So I’ve been really fortunate to find rewarding work that also lets me explore my passion for traveling.

The traveling, of course, always leads to meeting interesting people. So because of that, I have had my disproportionate share of international relationships. Traveling and health and helping people is something that’s really rewarding. So I’m an urban dweller. I love cities.

I’ve always lived in major cities. I also really love getting out to the countryside and being in nature, hiking and swimming. But, I do find a cultural stimulation in cities that is hard to reach if you don’t live in an urban environment. So I love going out to restaurants and bars, meeting friends. I’m very social and, you know, that’s sort of social life has, of course, slowed down quite a lot in the last year and a half with COVID. But it’s slowly picking up again. I’m in my late thirties, never been married as you know, multiple relationships and one proposal, but technically.

Jodi: Thank you for sharing that background. So you and Max have parted ways, but you got back into dating. Otherwise we would not be having this conversation. How long after the two of you really ended things, did you dip your toe back into the dating waters and how did you go about doing it?

Olivia: I was not ready right away after we broke up to date again. But about two months after we parted ways, my friends convinced me to rejoin the dating scene via dating apps. And so I did dip my toe into the water by going onto Hinge, setting up a profile, not really looking around, but just putting it out there so that I could eventually come back to it.

Jodi: Did you actually start to go out with men shortly after you put your profile up?

Olivia: I didn’t go out with anyone. About a week after I put up my profile, I was a little bit curious. So I looked online. I went onto the app. And almost immediately saw a picture that I was intrigued by. And the accompanying description of this person was also intriguing. I was surprised to be honest.

I really didn’t think I was going to see anyone I was very interested in. And to be honest, even before my breakup and my previous relationship, I had been on a couple of apps, but was extremely picky. And nine times out of 10 just was not pulled in by a face or description. So I certainly wasn’t expecting to be pulled in by anyone, but I did see a profile I was interested in and I was just so intrigued by this one particular profile that I had to swipe.

Jodi: What happened next?

Olivia: Well, we immediately connected, which of course indicates that the other person has already “approved,” so to speak of you. So that obviously made me happy and even more intrigued. And so I sent him a message. And I didn’t get a message back for a couple of days, which was surprising to me. (Laughter)

And a few days later I did get a response and he told me, which I had also seen on his profile, that he was from Paris. And I of course have a bit of a weakness for the international types, as you know. I asked him if he was visiting or if he was from Paris originally and now living in my city.

He replied that he was only here for a couple of weeks, on a work-related trip. But unfortunately he was leaving the next day and the reason he had not responded to me right away, it was because he had done a hiking trip in the closest national park here. And he had been off the grid. So he was off the grid and then he got back just the night before he was flying back to Paris. And, unfortunately it meant we couldn’t meet, which was quite disappointing.

Jodi: That must’ve been very disappointing. You were intrigued, there was radio silence. He pops up and he says I’m leaving!

Olivia: Yep, exactly! It was quite disappointing. So, to be honest, at that point, I was still so sort of new to the dating scene again, and frankly wasn’t really prepared to start dating again. I was disappointed, but I also wasn’t devastated. I sort of thought, “okay, well, it just wasn’t meant to be.”

Jodi: What happened in your life after that?

Olivia: Interestingly enough, we messaged through the app for a couple of days.

And I jokingly told him that he could pop down to Biarritz, where I was going to be on vacation the next month. And in fact, he said he would love to, but that he wouldn’t be able to get away from work. I told him that was a bit too bad and that I was going to be spending time with friends. It would be lovely of course, to host him.

Again, I was mostly joking, I was going to be stopping through London on my way back to home. And, he said, coincidentally, he was going to be in London the exact same three days! And I could not believe it.

Jodi: Okay, so just to be clear, Biarritz is in the southern part of France. You were going to be traveling, by chance, to France shortly after you and he started communicating. What is this guy’s name?

Olivia: His name is Robert.

Jodi: His name is Robert. And then you discover that your plans to go to London, completely sync up with his plans to be in London at the exact same time!

Olivia: At the exact same time for the same exact three day. It was unbelievable. Neither of us could believe.

Jodi: What’d you decide?

Olivia: He said in that case, we’ll be in London the same three days. I insist we go out on a date the first night we’re both there! And I said, of course! (Laughter)

And then we had an entire month essentially to build up to it. Actually, I’m so happy that it happened that way because we got the chance to really know each other by just talking, you know, for a month before we met in person. And the rapport was just unbelievable. My friends, could tell you – the ones that I was on vacation with –  could tell you that I was just laughing out loud. I was on my phone. I tend to not to be on my phone all the time, but we were corresponding back and forth every single day for a couple of weeks. And the chemistry was amazing, even thru the phone.

Jodi: When you say through the phone, are you implying that you were texting the entire time or did you actually talk as well?

Olivia: It’s funny. We were texting almost the entire time, um, and I accidentally hit the call button. One day I was with my friends. I accidentally hit the call button and it took a few seconds to realize what was happening. So I immediately hung up because I thought that would just be a bit odd. We hadn’t really planned to speak. But it was quite cute. And this shows his nature very well. He immediately called me back and I didn’t pick up because I just was just freaked out. Didn’t know what to do. (Laughter)

Jodi: You just stared at the phone?

Olivia: I just stared at the phone and his name came up. And I didn’t pick up and he left me a voicemail, very sweetly saying, “I thought you were calling to talk. I’d love to hear your voice.”

Jodi: Oh, it was no big deal for him.

Olivia: No big deal. Very open, very enthusiastic. And I think that was a really good sign.

Jodi: Did you call him right back?

Olivia: No! (Laughter) I decided I would prefer to hear his voice and have him hear my voice on our first date in London.

Jodi: You never spoke with Robert before you met face to face? You just texted the entire time?

Olivia: Yes the entire time.

Jodi: For a month?

Olivia:  Yes, for almost a month. I would say it was closer to three weeks, but it was quite a lot. Yeah. We, we actually later looked back at our text correspondence during that period. And we realized we had exchanged more messages than either one of us had ever exchanged with a single friend of ours.

There’s actually an algorithm, something that you can use to sort of count the number of messages you’ve exchanged and the length and the amount of gigabytes, basically, that we had used messaging far surpassed any single one of our friends that we’d had for decades. So that alone tells you how much that we were corresponding.

Jodi: So hopefully you used WhatsApp or Signal, so you weren’t charging up, iMessage on data? (Laughter)

Olivia: Yeah.

Jodi: Wow! Okay. Take us to London. Where did the two of you rendezvous for your first date?

Olivia: I was flying there to see friends, just as a stopover on my way home.

And, I was staying at an Airbnb. It turned out that it was right down the street from where he had gone to business school, so he knew the neighborhood very well. And so he asked me where I was staying. He was also staying in an Airbnb in a different neighborhood. But he, as gentlemen do, suggested a cute little cocktail bar that was pretty close to me.

It was a beautiful little place called The Mulwray, in Soho in London. And so I had had lunch with a friend earlier that day, and I have to say I was a little bit nervous because I knew we had this amazing rapport. But again, as I said, we hadn’t heard each other’s voices. We hadn’t seen face to face.

There are all these factors that you just cannot pick up on online of course, that are quite different in person. And so I was a little bit nervous about the date. Not because I thought I was so madly in love with him already, although in retrospect, I think that was happening. But I just didn’t know if my expectation of him was going to be met because sometimes there are things that happen in person.

Someone’s voice is a little funny or there’s just no chemistry or, you know, there’s a habit that they have, which you can’t get over. So I really didn’t know what it was going to be like in person, but my friend, the friend I had had lunch with earlier in the day said don’t worry about it.

Also, you’re only three months out of this other relationship. And of course it’s going to feel strange jumping in so quickly to, to something, whether it becomes something or not. And so I went into the date just feeling a little nervous, but then also being my usual confidence self, and telling myself to breathe and relax.

And if nothing else came up, I knew that he and I could be friends because we clearly had a shared sense of humor, shared interests and a lot of things to talk about….politics and culture and arts and travel. So I knew that no matter what happened, at least I would come out of it with a friend.

Jodi: Do you think, looking back, that if you had spoken with him before the two of you met in person, there would’ve been less pressure on you and you would’ve been less nervous for that first “hello”?

Olivia: I think I probably would have been a little less nervous because with someone’s voice, you do feel like you know them, even if you haven’t met face to face. But to be honest, I think I was sort of enjoying the nervousness. It was exciting! It was mostly anticipated.

Jodi: You were taking a heck of a vacation! You had time with friends, relaxation, beach town in the southwest of France. And on top of that, you were building anticipation to meeting this mystery man, whose voice you had never heard, but whose spelling and ability to communicate on text, you knew very well. So take us through your first date. How did it all begin?

Olivia: So I showed up at The Mulwray cocktail bar in Soho, and I was only five minutes late.

Jodi: Last time you share it on the podcast. So you’re typically 10 minutes late. So you must have been excited. 

Olivia: I was excited and I was determined not to show up late.

So I got there so a few minutes late, but thinking it’s a woman’s prerogative, especially on a first date. But he wasn’t there. So I thought, “Oh good. I’m off the hook.” And I settled in to the booth, the dark blue velvet booth in this beautiful cocktail bar. It was very quiet. There was some nice jazz playing.

It was actually a very relaxing environment. Very romantic. But also relaxing because there wasn’t a lot of extra noise that weren’t people crowding everywhere. So in retrospect, it was the perfect place for a first date. And I sat there with my cocktail for about 10 minutes, I would say. (Laughter) And then this extremely tall handsome man walked through the bar door.

He was even taller than he had described on the app. I knew he was extremely tall, but he was even taller and I couldn’t believe it! (Laughter) So I got up and we did the awkward first date hug where you don’t know someone. And it was very nice actually. It felt really natural. It didn’t feel strange at all.

We sat down. He ordered a drink and we just started talking and it was exactly like our correspondence that we’d had for the previous three weeks. It was natural. The conversation flowed. It was funny. It was serious. There was a nice ebb and flow. It was meaningful and personal, not just like chit chat and talking about things like, what do you do for a living and this and that, because actually we’d gotten a lot of those things out of the way.

And he’s also not someone who’s very good at chitchat. He’s very intense and he’s very interested in always diving deep, even with people he doesn’t know very well. He always, I want to say, tries, but he doesn’t try, it’s involuntary. He’s driven to have meaningful conversation. And I think that that had come through in our text correspondence and it came through in our first date conversation as well. And so we just talked about so many things and hours flew by.

Jodi: People who strive to have meaningful conversations are usually people who strive to have meaningful connections, because conversation leads to connection. Did you feel during this evening that the connection was just locking in between the two?

Olivia: Absolutely! It felt unlike any first date I’ve had before. And I’ve had first dates where the chemistry was very intense, but the emotional connection wasn’t quite there, or there was a nice emotional connection, but I kind of left the date feeling like this person’s just a friend. But this was unlike anything before where on one hand I felt like we had known each other for years. Just the way the conversation was flowing.

We were so comfortable with each other. It was lively and fun, but sweet and personal as well, but you know, the comfort of it didn’t negate the fact that it was also really exciting because here was a confirmation of, I think, both of our hope and expectations that this was going to be a really meaningful date and a meaningful connection. And it was so it was simultaneously comfortable and exciting, which is a really rare combination and something I haven’t really had before.

Jodi: It sounds very powerful the way the two of you came together that evening, that first face to face, encounter that you had. Had Robert been married before?

Olivia: No, he had not been married before. He had had a number of serious relationships. But as he told me later, as we got to know each other, every relationship, even the ones that were good on paper or even good in real life, there was something missing. And I knew exactly what he meant because for me, it had always felt that way as well.

And I realized that night that I felt differently about it. In this short period of time than I’d ever felt. And he certainly felt that way about me. It felt very special and that connection was very apparent to us. It didn’t even need to be verbally acknowledged. It was just so apparent.

Jodi: So you’re in London, you had a drink in hand, he comes in and then this extraordinary date commences for you. How did the evening evolve from there?

Olivia: Well, the evening itself started pretty late. I think we were meant to meet at The Malwray at 10:00 PM. So it was definitely a post dinner drink.

And then after a couple of cocktails, the manager came over and said, “I can see that you two are having a wonderful time, but unfortunately we have to close in half an hour.” So we looked at each other and said, well, we don’t want this date to end. “Where can we go?” So we located another great little cocktail bar down the street.

We went. We walked down. I had actually been there with a friend on a previous trip and luckily it was very close by. So we went and we just continued our conversation and we had another drink. And then around two o’clock in the morning, I caught an Uber back to my Airbnb. He located a rental bicycle somehow at two o’clock in the morning and London located at a rental bicycle and he wheeled himself back to his Airbnb.  

We made plans to meet the next afternoon, which we did. We went for a lovely walk. Again, the conversation just flowed. It really felt like we had been dating or that we were dating already and that we knew each other so well. And then the weekend continued

We actually had dinner with a couple of friends of mine who were also in town. And that was a lot of fun because I was able to see him in a context, outside of a date, just with me. And I think that’s actually very important for people to see how their potential partner might interact with them and with their friends in a group setting because people can change.  

Jodi: This was a lot of time to be spending with a stranger. He was a stranger to you until you met him, really. Because we can communicate with people as long as one does in advance of meeting, but there is something, as you said, really essential when you bring in people together and that’s that you are face to face, right? So on this short trip to London, you have had this odyssey of an experience with this man.

You met him. You’ve had drinks with him. You’ve spent actual time walking together. Now you’re meeting friends. There’s this whole friend dimension, often this takes weeks and a typical paced relationship. And if it’s during COVID, that’s a whole different story to unfold in this manner. Did you feel like you were on a speedway racing ahead together? Was it the right pace or was it too fast?

Olivia: Not at all. Didn’t feel like we were speeding or like it was too fast, but of course, in retrospect it was, we were making leaps and bounds in a single short weekend the kind of progress that as you said, most people make over the course of weeks or even months. It did go quite quickly.

But in retrospect, we realized that. In the moment, it just felt so natural. I think for both of us. It’s almost as though there wasn’t even a question we would have dinner with my friends that we would go for a walk or see each other again the third day in a row. In fact, the third day in a row, we decided to go to the airport together.

So we were on the train because he had a flight back to Paris. I had a flight home and. He actually only told me later that he extended his trip by a couple of hours, just to spend more time with me. He changed his flight, which was supposed to depart. We were on the train to Heathrow engrossed in conversation, just chatting away and we didn’t realize the train had stopped.

There had been some kind of an accident on the, on the tracks. But you know, w there was no bother to us. We were having this wonderful conversation. But then the train started up again and we pulled into Heathrow and I looked at my phone and I realized the time and the baggage was closing in 10 minutes. And so I said we really need to run for my gate. So he helped me. I was pulling this huge suitcase we ran through there.

We got up to the gate and they said, “Oh, we’re so sorry. Baggage closed a few minutes ago. There’s no way we can let you on the flight.”

And I said, “You’re joking. I need to fly across the Atlantic and across the country. And you’ve got to let me on this flight. I actually have a work meeting tomorrow. It’s very important.”

And they said, “Nope, sorry. There’s nothing we can do.”

If you travel a lot internationally, you know, that Heathrow is very strict. They really are not willing to negotiate.

Jodi: The two of you in the course of your three days together now are in crisis management mode. Wow! Okay. So let’s just layer that on to everything else. Take us through how you dealt with the situation.

Olivia: It was fascinating because I again was able to see the side of Robert that you would probably not see for at least weeks or months into a relationship. He was very calm. He said, “Okay, we can figure this out.”

So we sat down. We both got on our phones. I found a flight the next morning, which was essentially about a 24 hour delay.

He said, “Of course, I’m going to change my flight to tomorrow and stay with you. There’s no way I’m going to give up spending an extra day with this amazing person.”

He literally said these things!

Jodi: So romantic!

Olivia: So romantic and so vulnerable! To an honest, many men would not be willing to sort of share or let their feelings be so known and so open.

So he changed his flight. I changed my flight and we looked at each other as if we had like a new lease on life and said, “Okay, what’s next?” (Laughter)

So he said, why don’t we go rent a car and we’ll drive out to the countryside and explore a little bit? So we did!

Jodi: Crisis averted and an opportunity for more vacation and time together! That’s very creative thinking and really a tremendous way to take a what could have been a very stressful situation and make it a very fun!

Olivia: Exactly! It was. We made the absolute best of it and had absolutely had a ball. I mean, we drove out to the countryside. We discovered this really cute little town called Rye, a very quintessential town in the English countryside with cobbled streets and little pugs. We just wandered around and had lunch and then had dinner. And it was unbelievably romantic. So I think neither of us was very neither of us regretted the change that is for sure.

Jodi: Thank you, United Airlines! (Laughter)

Olivia: Exactly! And it’s funny. To this day, my mom is still convinced I skipped my flight in order to spend more time with them. And I, I keep reassuring her. It’s not the case, but she’s convinced.

Jodi: Well, she’ll have to trust her daughter. (Laughter)

The two of you part ways at Heathrow the following day. Bring us up to speed on what’s going on now with you and Robert please.

Olivia: We have come a very long way since then. We continued to keep in touch, talking on the phone this time with voices almost every day for the next week. And it took all of seven days for him to ask me to come visit him in Paris, which I agreed to do a few weeks later.

And then we essentially swapped locations. He came to visit me. I went to visit him every other month for almost a year. It turned into a very serious long distance relationship. And then at some point it became obvious that the long distance wasn’t the most ideal situation. So I decided to move to Paris and we are living there together now.

Jodi: That’s a huge life change! Could you ever have foreseen this, that one swipe to the right on an app you really didn’t want to be on very much, after the end of a relationship,  would evolve into you becoming a European citizen?

Olivia: No, I could never have imagined. I have always embraced adventure and opportunity and spontaneity. But I definitely could not have imagined that just going on to that app at that time would have led to this. And ultimately in retrospect, there were so many things that had to align.

Had I gone on that app just one week later, he would have been out of town. He would have been gone in his profile, would not have shown up for me. And in addition to the amazing timing of him being where I was living and being on the app and my going on that particular week, which could have easily slipped out of our hands, we also found out later that he had been living on the same street as me in my city While he was there for work. Literally four blocks away and he had been doing laundry at my corner laundromat. We could have passed, and maybe did pass, each other on the street during those few weeks before we connected online.

Jodi: That is wild!

Olivia: It was wild. And then being in London for the exact same three days, one month later. It’s just that so many things had to align and come together for us to meet. And I’m not superstitious, but it truly feels like it was meant to be.

Jodi: Do you believe in fate?  

Olivia: I do. I’ve always had a complex relationship with the idea of fate, but if anything makes me feel like fate in some form exists, it is my relationship.

And it was that feeling that was so apparent to both of us and so strong that also led us to become engaged about a year ago.

Jodi: Congratulations!

Olivia: Thank you! It’s been magical and wild being engaged and trying to plan a wedding during COVID. But we have overcome all the obstacles and I think we’re stronger for it.

Jodi: I have no doubt that you are very strong as a couple given all that you have experienced together.

You know, the next question I’m going to ask, because I asked it to you when you were on the first time, and that is….what have you learned from this experience and what advice do you have for listeners?

Olivia: It’s an interesting question because I think I have relearned some of the things I learned before and in a different way, such as, and most importantly, the importance of being open.

I had previous to my last relationship that ended, I had been very hesitant to go online and to do online dating and to do the apps largely because a lot of my friends seem to have disappointing experiences.

I also always wanted to meet someone in real life. That was my ideal. But when I did go online and I met people, and not just people, but especially the love of my life that I’m with now, I realized how important it is to be open to evolving and to be open to things that you resist at first.

And that’s not to say, do everything, try everything. And if you’re truly uncomfortable, you shouldn’t do it. To push your boundaries a little bit and to be open, to meeting people in different kinds of ways, because there are all kinds of ways you can meet people and doing an app going on an app is just one more way. It just broadens the pool of people that you are exposed to.

So I think being open minded to how you meet someone is really, really important. And that’s only been emphasized to me more now.

And then the other really important lesson I’ve learned from this is the importance of vulnerability, both for the other person, your partner, being vulnerable and being open and honest is absolutely critical to having a healthy relationship.

And I honestly had never met someone as open and comfortable with his feelings as Robert. But it also showed me that I need to be more vulnerable. I’ve never considered myself a defensive or closed person. But when you’re with someone who is so open themselves and able to be themselves, you realize how silly it is and what a waste of time it is to be closed off in any way.

And in my previous relationship I had in fact ended up being closed off because I was ignoring what my instinct was telling me, which was this isn’t right. You should end it. I ignored that for long enough. And I realize now with Robert that I can’t repress anything if I want this to be a healthy relationship.

It doesn’t mean to let it all hang out or to, you know, over-communicate in terms of needing to talk about your feelings 24 hours a day, but in terms of the important fundamental issues that arise in a relationship it’s critical to be yourself and to expect out of the other person too, because that makes for an incredibly healthy relationship. And it’s a standard that is hard to meet, and it’s a standard that’s hard to hold others too. But I think when you do, you realize how healthy and how positive your relationships can become.

Jodi: In any part of your life, not just a romantic part of your life.

Olivia: Absolutely. It applies to everyone, especially your romantic partner, because that’s who you spend the most time with ultimately. But absolutely it’s important for every relationship.

Jodi: So true! Congratulations again on finding the love of your life. I wish you two forever happiness and just the life that you dream for yourselves to become true!

Olivia: Thank you, Jodi. And I’m happy to say it is already coming true.

Jodi: Tremendous! Thank you so much for coming back again and please make this the last time that you’re my guest on the podcast.

Olivia: That’s a promise! Thanks Jodi.

Photo by Lucas Davies on Unsplash

The post Olivia and Robert appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Hi! Thank you so much for tuning into this episode. What’s the first thing that pops into your head when you hear the word “mindful”? My hunch is that it’s not the word “dating.” But that may change when you hear what my guest this episode has to say.

Dr. Marie Thouin is the founder of Love Insight, a Mindful Dating coaching practice, where she helps people of all ages, genders and sexual relationship orientations navigate the path of intimate love.

As a psychology researcher and online dating expert, she assists her clients in developing personalized winning strategies for today’s dating landscape. Her holistic toolbox encompasses sound practical advice with the ability to support her clients into deep inquiry and grow. Through her own dating journey, Marie gained the ability to live with a heart wide open. This process revealed her mission to help others navigate the path of modern love and relationships and led her to the gorgeous man, both inside and out who became her husband.

Marie earned her MBA from Golden Gate University and her PhD from the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, where she studied sexuality and romantic relationships.

Her research was featured in Elle and Common Ground magazines. And I’m thrilled to say that she is a Featured Contributor for our First Date Stories Blog, where you can find articles that she’s written on a whole wide variety of topics, including such important subjects, as “How to Overcome Shame,” “How to Turn Rejection into a Catalyst for Love” and “How to Say No to Someone Else from the Heart.”

Marie, It is wonderful to have you as a part of the First Date Stories Featured Contributor community and I have so been looking forward to this conversation.

Marie: Oh, thank you for having me, Jodi.

Jodi: Let’s get right into it. So, as I understand it, your decision to become a Mindful Dating coach was really an outgrowth of your own personal dating journey. So, given that, please tell us about that journey and what you learned.

Marie: Yes. My journey with dating was always so educational. That is the first word I think about when I think about my own dating life. I went on so many dates with so many different people from different backgrounds and each one of those dates revealed something new about myself and something new about humanity.

Like there’s not many ways in our society where we can have access to so many different people and just get a little bite of humanity on a regular basis. And not only that, but dating has always been such a mirror, including like when getting into a relationship and seeing what happens to us, then all the emotions that come up and it’s just been such a great way to understand myself.

Jodi: That is a wonderful way to we’ll look at dating. It seems like a very healthy way to look at dating and one that I share and have shared  during my dating years. You need to draw from within as well as take in from other people.

Marie: Absolutely!

Jodi: So you call your approach “Mindful Dating.” What is Mindful Dating?

Can you share more about that and probably start with what mindfulness is for those listeners who aren’t quite sure? And then we can switch into what exactly Mindful Dating is.

Marie: Yeah, absolutely. Mindfulness is a word that refers primarily to equality of self-awareness. It’s the ability to be present with ourselves in our bodies and in our minds and in our hearts as we’re going through life.

Rather than being somewhere in the future or somewhere in the past, we want to live a mindful life because it allows us to be in the present fully engaged with that experience. So Mindful Dating is actually the engagement with dating from a place of presence and awareness, rather than just a place of goal-oriented action that is simply like, “I want to nail down this person into a relationship.”

Mindful Dating doesn’t mean we don’t get into a relationship, but we use that process of dating as a tool. To know ourselves better and disentangle the things that we’ve learned from our past, from society, from the media and who we really are and what we really want from love.

Jodi: Is this an approach to dating that you developed?

Marie: I’m not the first person to talk about Mindful Dating. One of the main dating coaches and psychologists out there who already talked about Mindful Dating is Dr. Ken Page. And he wrote a book called Deeper Dating. He also takes that approach to dating. It’s a more spiritual or more growth-oriented approach to dating.

So I wouldn’t say I invented Mindful Dating. But I would say to them, I’m one of the only Mindful Dating coaches that I know out there who take that radical approach. Most dating coaches are there or more of the spirit of, “okay, let’s get you in a relationship in six weeks or eight weeks or. Let’s teach you how to play the game more successfully, the game of seduction, et cetera.”

And I think a more radical approach that says like, “no, let’s use that process to really understand who you are and what you want and allow you to live with a more open heart. And from there, the relationships that you will create will be of a higher caliber.”

Jodi: It’s so interesting that you call that “radical” because for a person to really, truly fall in love with another person and a love that will last ongoing, that person really needs to be in love with themself. Right? You need to look inward first and you’re framing that as radical and win it many ways. Should be natural. And yet you are right on, we live in a world where we are moving forward, fast, fast, fast swipe, swipe, swipe, next, next, next, right?

All that speed and….find that person! We feel there’s pressure to get that new person in our life, what have you, when it seems so logical to take the time to look inward and, and be present and figure out what makes sense for ourselves and then find that right person.

Marie: Yeah. It is interesting that it is so radical. And what’s interesting too, is that so many people who actually are into mindfulness and have a spiritual practice of some sort still have so many blind spots when it comes to dating and sexuality and romantic love.

And that’s oftentimes the part that creates a bottleneck in their lives, where it feels like the conditioning we receive in that area is thicker and more intense than really any other areas of our lives. So it’s sort of a bottleneck for many people. It’s the area that feels sometimes the most confusing or the hardest where the healing is the most difficult.

Jodi: Are there approaches or techniques that you feel comfortable sharing that you utilize with clients who are experiencing those bottlenecks?

Marie: Well, it depends on what the bottleneck is and that will be different for every client. So there’s not the universal, like, okay, this is what you have to do if you want to do Mindful Dating and get unstuck. People oftentimes have trouble just even trusting themselves and trusting their own inner compass to be able to magnetize a great partner into their lives.

Oftentimes, the work is about refining one’s own inner compass. And we can work together on the intuition process. Like how do you know inside your body, how you feel about a person? How do you know when you feel safe and when your heart feels good with a person? So that is one of the main, main things that I work with my clients.

Sometimes it’s about really visioning and knowing like, oh, okay, like this is the kind of person that I think would be compatible with me versus not. Yeah, there’s a lot.

Jodi: There is a lot, it’s very broad in scope. And yet you tailor it to the needs and the challenges and the bottlenecks and the desires of the people who you are working with.

Marie: Right.

Jodi: So how do you think our cultural context supports or doesn’t support mindfulness?

Marie: Well, unfortunately I think that there’s very little support for Mindful Dating. We’re still in a historical period where there’s a lot of traditional conservative or just ingrained values. And I’m not putting any value judgment on any specific values, but I would say that in the realm of sexuality and gender roles, we have inherited so much baggage, so many beliefs about what is the role of a man? What is the role of a woman? How should they interact? How should they form a relationship? What does a committed relationship even mean? And if someone dares to go outside of those parameters, oftentimes they face a lot of backlash.

Like if someone dares to question the nuclear family model, for example, or question gender roles or question things like cohabitation or sleeping in the same bedroom, or all of those things, they will have to face anywhere from just like people questioning them and questioning their integrity to sometimes being actually persecuted. So it can be a risky road to really becoming yourself without fear.

Jodi: Yes, that is unfortunately true in too many places I will say. But there’s work to be done that people can do to help themselves date in a mindful manner. Right?

Marie: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Jodi: Let’s talk online dating. Online dating is very prevalent now. And a lot of people like it, and a lot of people are uncomfortable with it for a variety of reasons. So re-imagining online. Dating is exciting idea for many folks, I’m sure. Do you have any advice on how to go about re-imagining online dating and help people like wipe away the cynicism, if they have it and improve their outcomes?

Marie: Absolutely. That is one of the biggest topics that I work with my clients. And it starts usually with just writing a really authentic and bold online dating profile. So instead of hiding behind a generic profile with generic statements, daring to really be ourselves and really saying what we’re there for who we are, what’s in our heart.

And having photos that really represent us in their best possible light. So coming out of hiding is usually a really meaningful process for people while they’re doing online dating and it can change their entire experience.

And then there’s a way that people then select who they are going to go on dates with or who they’re even going to interact with. So the selection process can be really interesting to look at from a mindful lens. Like how are you saying yes to some people and no to some people? And from what part of you are you doing that?

I like to suggest to people, to my clients, that they ritualize online dating. So rather than in the middle of the day, distractingly picking up their phone and swiping left and right and doing it kind of mindlessly, to create a safe container, to maybe light a couple candles and do some breathing and then to do what I would call Mindful Swiping, which is to get into a more embodied state of attention.

And then look at people with compassion. Look at people who are on the other side of those profiles with more of an intuitive and more of a hard base perception so that you cannot just be there to judge people and see what’s wrong with them, but to try to connect and to try to viscerally experience where they’re at and whether they might have compatibility with you and send them love and send them goodness. So that’s one way to re enchant online dating.

Jodi: I love this idea of Mindful Swiping! I love it because for so many people swiping is just a rote activity. You’re waiting for your Uber, you just start swiping. If you’re busy doing other things, you’re not truly present. And you’re certainly not extending compassion or trying to get a sense of connection with that person who you’re staring at on your phone.

What you’re talking about is really prioritizing this as something that you do regularly at an appointed time, in a very thoughtful way to really beckon in opportunity, I guess.

Marie: Right! And observe yourself while you’re doing it to like, observe like, oh, how do you feel what’s coming up when you see a certain type of person? When you experience a sense of disappointment or frustration and, and why are those things coming up? And to just breathe into them and to let them exist, but to try to use that experience, to release some of it and find compassion as well.

Jodi: What you’re saying sounds fabulous. It does require someone to be hyper aware of their emotions and their reactions as they’re living them. Do you suggest people have a journal nearby when they’re doing this or some other tools…paper, pencil, whatever…to capture how they’re feeling as they go through this process.

Marie: I think that’s a great idea. I don’t know that everyone is a journaler. It really works well for some people and not so much for others. Some people just want to be in the moment without writing it down. So I think it depends on what really works for a person.

Jodi: Dating comes with a lot of wonderful life affirming connections with people, and it opens doors to new experiences, lots of positivity, and ultimately hopefully leaves to love and companionship. But it also comes along the way often, usually with rejection, disappointment, discouragement, fear. It’s a lot of heavy duty stuff. These are tough emotions. What mindset do you think people should adopt to deal with all of this?

Marie: Number one is self-care and self-love. Because when confronted with that pain with those emotions of, oh wow. Like I’m being rejected, I’m feeling discouraged.

I’m feeling fearful that I’ll stay alone or be alone forever. We have to find solace in a deeper part of ourselves. That is our own friendship and our own resilience within ourselves. So building that resilience. Form of really taking care of ourselves physically, you know, through great habits, exercise, great food, great taking care of our bodies in a way that feels pleasurable and nurturing.

And then also cultivating social networks that give us love that feed our soul on a regular basis. So I always will talk to my clients about what other loving relationships are they cultivating in their lives. Because if you’re completely alone and feeling isolated and you’re dating, you might just put so much more weight on each person that you’re dating because they are more likely to then just come into that slot of “they need to take care of my needs, all my needs” in your mind when you’re meeting them and you like them. And that can lead to disappointment very, very fast.

So having a great network, having alignment also with one’s purpose and sense of value. If it’s not in your primary career, how can you bring love and bring value in your environment, maybe doing some volunteer work. Doing some activities where you feel like you are generating value from who you are.

All of that will help you build more resilience when those emotions, that discouragement, that pain or rejection comes. So I take a very holistic approach to dating coaching also because of those emotions that are so strong. And if we make ourselves resilient to them, then our entire life becomes better and we become better partners too when we get into those relationships.

Jodi: So true! One hundred percent agree with you. I know from reading a lot about this, that people who have social networks, not necessarily, of a partner, but social networks, friends, deep friendships, they live happier lives and they live longer lives.

It’s so important to do what you can to develop meaningful connections with others, even just one or two close friends can kick-in and create that social connection and that social network that you’re describing. You talked about building resilience through all of this. Aren’t you also building perspective?

Marie: That is such a good point. Yes. Resilience and also perspective. And that’s also where the mindfulness comes in. It’s the ability to observe our emotions and not just give them the first kind of instinctual meaning that is conditioned into us.

Usually when we experienced rejection, the first meaning we give it is something of the kind of like, “I’m not worthy. I’m not enough. I’m always going to be alone.” Those negative imprints that so many of us have at the deep level.

And this is an opportunity to kind of try to reprogram ourselves and give those emotions new meanings, like, “Oh, I’m feeling rejected. It doesn’t mean that I’m not lovable. It means that we were not compatible. It means that we’re not meant to be together and it’s okay. I’m not meant to be with most people. And I can either choose to send this person love, maybe even develop a friendship with them if they’re open to it, if there’s room for that.” Learn how to have great boundaries from my end.

There’s so much to learn in that emotion. And there’s so much meaning that can be found outside of those negative beliefs.

Jodi: It’s a journey. Right. And all of these experiences comprise that journey and build out the personal experience and the richness that hopefully comes overall out of it.

Marie: Yeah. I mean, it’s about connection. I think I might not have emphasized that enough so far in our conversation, but connection is fun! This is like the most fun we can have as human beings is through just discovering other human beings and seeing ourselves reflected through them. And dating offers us that opportunity, even when a certain connection doesn’t lead to the long-term relationship that ultimately you want, the experiences of it can be really enjoyable.

Jodi: What are your thoughts about finding love in midlife?

Marie: I think it’s such a great time to be looking for love and finding love because by the time someone is in midlife, they have learned so much already about themselves and about what works for them, what doesn’t work for them, what they’re willing to put up with what they’re not.

And just like that level of self-knowledge, allows us to show up more authentically. And I think these are my favorite clients who fall in midlife or beyond who have already done that kind of work on themselves and are just ready for a more, more true, more radical kind of love. It’s not so much about appearances anymore.

It’s not about just exploring, all kinds of different people. It’s more about really being intimate and being real. So I think there’s a lot of people who would think, “oh, it’s, it’s so late to be dating. It’s so late to be finding love,” but I think it’s the best possible time.

Jodi: It is really awesome to live life in a more real manner when you’re at midlife than earlier on where you really weren’t quite sure about a lot of things. Not that you’re entirely sure about everything at this point in life, but you got a lot better sense. There’s a lot of history that helps you get there.

Marie: Yeah. You have more information under your belt.

Jodi: Absolutely! So Mindful Dating during the pandemic. Things are better now. But I’m just curious, because there are folks understandably who are still dipping their toe into the dating scene and some are still doing virtual dating. How does one go about virtual dating mindfully?

Marie: Well to come back to the online dating mindset of re-inventing the virtual world, part of it is not forgetting that there’s another sensitive and complex human being on the other end, just like you.

So, whether you’re doing online, dating on apps or virtual speed dating, which is a really great way to meet people, or just meeting people virtually through a meetup to really exercise presence. To not just kind of dismiss it as… these are just people on a screen and they’re two dimensional, but to actually get into your body as you’re doing it and to get into your heart and through really feel and remember that this is a real connection that even though you’re not right next to them, you can still experience intimacy and wonderful communication and wonderful meaning through those connections.

And then of course, the COVID environment forces us to talk about boundaries and about safety right away with people that we’re considering meetings. So it’s forced a lot of people to find more authenticity around what they want and what they don’t want, and to communicate about something really intimate right away, which is how do I make another person feel safe, physically? What do I need from that other person to feel safe myself?

Jodi: You work with a lot of different people who have a lot of different concerns and challenges. When you work with them, when you coach these clients, what’s your goal? What are you hoping they’ll come out of the experience with?

Marie: So first I want people to feel like there is some magic to be found in dating. Often times I’ll work with clients who are already at a point of feeling discouraged or feeling like, okay, I’ve been dating, I’ve been trying and nothing is happening.

And it’s a very disenchanted view of love and dating. So the first order of business is to bring back some enchantment and some hope and some positivity and some fun into that process. Just think about online dating…what an amazing tool we have to meet people not only in our neighborhood who share our exact same activities, but to meet people who might live a little further away, that we know we would not normally have met without it.

So to look at how blessed really we are with the kind of freedom that we have to date people and to use the process to discover more of who we are and to build more intimacy with ourselves.

So to bring that frame into the process that it’s not just about like, oh, I’m going to fail or I’ve failed already because I haven’t found my person. But to bring more light and more, more versions of what would be success.

Jodi: Expand one’s thinking and approach to what this is…..really see it as an opportunity, maybe more than something to get you down and make you frustrated.

Marie: Right. And then the second thing is to help folks. Really express themselves more bold. Okay, I’m going to give you an example. I had a client who was very spiritual, like he meditated every day and he loved reading about spirituality and he was very introspective, but he never communicated that on his online dating profile, even though it was one of his main passions, like he just wrote on his online profile “Oh, I’m a very stable person. I work in banking. I like long walks on the beach or whatever.” It was a very generic profile.

I asked him “Why, why, why aren’t you writing more about what really fascinating about you? And we discovered that in his family of origin, he had been shamed and kind of rejected and laughed at for his interest in spirituality.

So he had become closeted in that way. So he felt like he had to hide that part of himself, even though that was one of his main parts really, one of his main passion. So reintegrating that into his dating profile and into his communication with people allowed him to reclaim that part of himself and then approach people from more authenticity, more of his whole self.

So oftentimes that is what I want to accomplish with my clients is for them to reclaim more of who they are and to really own it as they go out there, because that creates a bigger magnet. To the people who are really going to resonate with them. So it, it is a way to be more successful in connecting with the right people, because you’re just being yourself.

Jodi: The advice and guidance you gave this client to be more authentic went well beyond his dating life. It would have spilled over into his everyday life, his work life and, and beyond, because we’re not living in silos with these different activities that we do. Right?

Marie: My dating coaching is really holistic. I don’t intend it to just be narrow about your dating life I want it to be a positive force in people’s entire lives.

Jodi: Given what you said, I’ve just got to ask you about your coaching practice. Does it expand beyond the realm of dating? Do you offer services that go beyond that sphere?

Marie: Yes. Actually more recently I’ve expanded my dating coaching practice to include relationship coaching because some of my clients got into new relationships and there was no reason to stop coaching at that point because they just started navigating new challenges with those new found relationships.

And I think that it feels so right to call myself a dating and relationship coach at this point, because relationship is so encompassing of what really matters in our lives. Some people will also see me for a more general relationship coaching, not only at a romantic level, but also in their workplace and our family and their friendships.

So life is really about relationships. I am always delighted to support people to create better, more heartfelt, more authentic relationships. Anywhere in their life.

Jodi: That is fabulous. What a terrific sign of the success you’ve had with your clients that now you’re transitioning with them to the next stage, as they enter into relationships and want to grow and nurture those relationships successfully and in a life-affirming manner.

So for listeners who are interested in working with you, what should their next steps be?

Marie: Well, I offer 30 minutes free sessions. And I would love to speak with any of your listeners who are intrigued by my work. It’s not a salesy call at all. It’s just a sample coaching session where we talk about your situation and how you might benefit from coaching.

It’s on my website at LoveInsight-Dating.com. And there you can sign onto my newsletter and check out my Instagram and Facebook where I publish posts regularly. Please come and be part of my community and have a chat.

Jodi: Are a lot of your clients have virtual clients or do you mostly do in-person sessions?

Marie: Actually, all of my sessions are virtual over zoom. So I work with people who live anywhere, anywhere, anywhere with an internet connection. Or a phone

Jodi: Zoom will help us come together anywhere in the world!

Marie: Exactly! Exactly!

Jodi: If people want to find you on social, how and where can they find

Marie: you? Yeah, on Instagram at @love_insight_dating and on Facebook at LoveInsightDating. It’s all in one word.

Jodi: Terrific! We will put all of those links in the shownotes for this episode,

Marie, this has been so fabulous and so interesting! I have learned a great deal from you. I thank you for sharing so much wisdom with me and with listeners about Mindful Dating and how being mindful can help us get to that love we are seeking and also help us expand the love we have for ourselves.

Marie: Thank you so much for having me. I love how you wrapped it up perfectly!

The post Special Episode: Mindful Dating appeared first on First Date Stories.

Jodi: Welcome to the podcast, Laurie. I am so glad you’re joining me

Laurie: today, Jodi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here and have this conversation with you.

Jodi: I know it is going to be a really good conversation.

Laurie: Thank you.

Jodi: Now, our longtime listeners may recall that in Season One, we had another episode with a guest named Laurie, and that episode is the Laurie and Peter episode where Laurie goes on a date with a guy Peter who shows up with his dog and ends up talking to her through the dog. It was quite a memorable date and quite a memorable episode, but you are not that Laurie, are you?

Laurie: No. Thank goodness. That sounds….I’m going to have to go back and listen to that podcast though. I’m Laurie James.

Jodi: Okay. Laurie, just wanted to make sure that it was clear and clarified for everyone that you were a new guest with a new story, which we will dive into soon.

I think though, it’s important that each guest share some background about herself at the outset of our episode, so that the listeners get a feel for her…get an understanding of who she is before we get into the discussion about the date. So would you kindly share some details about yourself?

Laurie: Happily. I am a 56 year old divorcee, a turned author and life coach. I stayed home to raise my four daughters for over 20 years before reinventing myself. One of my daughters is still in college and I have one that’s in law school. Two are gainfully employed and when I’m not busy promoting my book and coaching, you can usually find me skiing, sailing, hiking, doing yoga, spending time with my girlfriends, dating and planning my next adventure.

Jodi: You live a very full life.

Laurie: Yes, I designed it that way. I do like to be active and I like to experience life. I don’t want to just sit and watch life, go by me.

Jodi: Now, you mentioned early on that you are a divorcee. So you are coming to this episode with a story about someone that you met after your marriage.

Laurie: Correct.

Jodi: What is the name of this man? And what were the circumstances around which you met him?

Laurie: So his name is Gary. He reached out to me on one of the online dating apps and we quickly started a conversation online. And within the first day of communicating with him, he asked me out on a date.

Jodi: How long before you met Gary had you gotten divorced?

Laurie: Separated for three and a half years, divorced for two.

Jodi: How did you come to start dating again? After your divorce was final, or did you start dating while you were separated?

Laurie: I did start dating when I was separated. I waited about six months, six to seven months after I left my marriage to start dating whether that was the right amount of time. Who knows? It just felt right for me at the time. I think at the beginning, I probably was looking for some amount of validation that, after being married for 26 years, together with somebody for 28 that, some other male species found me attractive. (Laughter)

And through that dating, I had dated somebody for about four months. And then about a year later, I dated another gentleman for about six months. And that second relationship ended, right as COVID hit.

Jodi: Did you get the validation that you were seeking?

Laurie: I actually did. And, I think it was my first relationship that ended up only lasting four months. But that relationship did give me the validation that I was looking for, that there was somebody who found me attractive and interesting and valued me in a lot of ways and found things in me that my ex-husband wasn’t capable of communicating to me.

Jodi: So much of around the validation you got, had to do with the type of communication that you experienced.

Laurie: Yes. Negative communication or lack thereof. (Laughter)

Jodi: Got it.. Understood. Okay. So you were sort of in unchartered territory in a few ways because, well, we all were new to life during a pandemic.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: And also you had just come out of a six month relationship.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: Did you immediately decide after the conclusion of that relationship that you wanted to get busy dating again, or were you holding back because of all the uncertainty around what COVID was and how it’s transmitted?

Laurie: I waited a couple of months. I had three of my four daughters came home because at the time I had two that were in college and one in law school. So they needed a place to come back to, even though they had originally had plans to be gone for the summer through the summer. But I waited a couple of months. I felt like I needed some time to reflect and process and heal from the six-month relationship because I did develop strong feelings for this gentleman.

So I did take some time to myself. And then I decided that it was time for me to go out and get my feet wet again. You have to get back on the horse, so to speak, if you eventually want to be in a relationship. And at that point it was probably around summer time. And we were starting to learn a little bit more about the disease and how it was transmitted and safety measures to take. So I felt at that point, comfortable enough to meet people at a comfortable social distance.

Jodi: You are so right that we do have to get back on the horse. It’s not always easy and it’s often very hard. But to get your foot in the stirrup and throw that leg over onto the saddle is essential.

And it takes bravery sometime, it takes a lot of strength, sometimes to do it and fortitude. And, but when you’re back up there and you’ve got the higher view and you’re riding along, it can be pretty amazing to be back meeting people again.

Jodi: Now let’s go back to Gary and how you met him.

Laurie: Okay.

Jodi: He contacted you on Match.com and you responded. What was it about him that you found appealing?

Laurie: He actually didn’t have very much on his profile and his pictures were a little blurry.

Laurie: I feel like men don’t always do a great job on their profiles. But he was tall, and I like taller men. I’m 5’8. I definitely want someone who’s at least taller than me. His interests seem to line up with what I’m interested in. His activities or hobbies.

And just that initial conversation that we had via text through the app, he was a very communicative. He was very complimentary. And he seemed very interested in getting to know me. He felt very genuine to me.

Jodi: You were able to pick that up from what you saw on his profile and the early communications. The two of you had

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: Someone being authentic, being genuine is essential to a successful, healthy relationship of any kind.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: What happened next?

Laurie: So he did ask me out via text on the app and I had then asked him to have a phone conversation first. I felt like it was just the right next step. He wasn’t a seasoned online dater. He had been on the app for a total of about a week.

Jodi: Newbie, completely newbie.

Laurie: He was very much a newbie and I wasn’t. And so I’ve been on enough dates through the last three years that I wanted to at least have a phone conversation. So he agreed, you know, very kindly agreed to that. And we talked on the phone a couple of days later for about an hour and it was a great conversation. It just flowed really nicely.

Again, through the conversation I could tell that he was a very kind loving man, a family man. And since my family is very important to me and my kids, that was something that was very attractive to me. So at the end of the conversation, he asked me out to dinner for the following Saturday night. And of course I said, yes.

Jodi: How did you feel when you hung up that phone?

Laurie: Great. And it was probably the most excited I was about a date in a very long time. I would say throughout the whole pandemic,

Jodi: Had you been doing much dating between the time you stepped up, back out, uh, that summer and your time that you started to communicate with, with Gary?

Laurie:  I did on and off, it would ebb and flow, but I would, I would meet men ether at a park and we’d social distance, or I’d go for a walk or I’d meet for coffee. So I had met, I would say more than a half a dozen men. I’d say I probably went on six to eight dates over that nine months. None of the dates excited me the way Gary did.

Jodi: Gary asked you out what. Where are your plans?

Laurie: He asked me out to dinner and then he gave me the option. He asked me what restaurant I wanted to go to. He was, he lives about an hour away. So he was going to drive out. He asked me to pick the restaurant, but that he made the reservation

Jodi: Very gentlemanly. How were you responding to that? Is that something that’s important to you?

Laurie: That is I, yes, it is important to me. I’m a little old fashioned that way I want a man in my life who is willing to step up and take control and take charge of those types of things.

Jodi: Chivalry is a lovely thing to be on the receiving end of yes, for many people.

Not everybody sees it that way, but for those who do. That’s wonderfu to find a man who has those behaviors and carries out those sorts of acts. Yes. All right. So the evening of the date arrives. Did you meet him at the restaurant?

Laurie: So this is interesting. He texted me during the day.

And said he was really excited about the date and he couldn’t wait. And he sent me a text asking me if I would prefer to meet him at the restaurant or would I mind if he picked me up. And what I saw that text, I didn’t respond right away. I really took some time to think about it because I had never let anybody on a first date pick me up.

I waited and based off my conversation, during the conversation that we had on the phone three or four days earlier, he had told me he knew a couple people that lived in my community and my town and his daughter used to live in the town that I lived in. And there was just something about him that made me comfortable enough to say “yes.”

So I allowed him to pick me up at my house. He brought a really lovely bottle of red wine. He brought me a beautiful candle and knocked on my front door. I mean, I can’t remember the last time I had a date who came to my front door, knocked on it, gave me a bottle of wine and a candle. It was just a really wonderful way to start off the date.

Jodi: I can imagine. After you chose to break your own rule, did you feel confident in that decision?

Laurie: Immediately, no. (Laughter) When he walked up to the door and handed me a bottle of wine and a candle and had this, you know, kind smile on his face. Yes.

Jodi: Very good. That your decision was validated in that moment.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: As far as you knew things, the decision that you had made was the right one and the evening was starting off on a very romantic footing.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi:  I got to say, I’ve never heard of a man bringing a woman, a candle on a first date that implies a lot (Laughter) but we’ll get there.

Jodi:  What happened after your “hello” at your doorstep?

Laurie: So I grabbed my jacket and we left for the restaurant. We went to a great, nice romantic Italian restaurant in town. He had been there before as well, so he knew it. And interestingly enough, this was the first weekend, or the first couple of days that restaurants were starting to allow people indoors, so that gives people a timeframe of when this was right before Easter. We sat down and there was an immediate connection. I’m not going to lie.

Jodi: Don’t lie! This is all about telling it as it happened. Please do not lie. (Laughter) Wow! So there was a connection. Explain, how did that connection manifest itself?

Laurie: It manifested itself by enjoying a nice bottle of wine, a great conversation. There was never a moment when I felt like I wanted to get up and leave. I mean, in fact, the complete opposite. Literally the date flew by. Before I knew it, it, we had been there for three hours talking laughing, sharing stories, eating, enjoying a nice bottle of wine. I mean, to me, there’s nothing better than having great conversation, a great meal in a romantic setting on a first date. I mean, it was just, everything was there and he felt chemistry with me as well because he, you know, grabbed my hand and at moments in our conversation, so I knew it was mutual.

Jodi: He set the romantic tenor at the beginning. Yes. From moment one, his expectation was that this would be a romantic date. Yeah. And that just from what you’re saying, kept being validated by everything that happened.

When he touched your hands on a first date, how did it feel?

Laurie: I’ve had that happen before on first dates and in the past I’ve been hesitant and I was probably a little hesitant with him because for me personally, it takes a little bit of time for trust to be built. But I allowed it because I did feel the chemistry.

Jodi: It wasn’t clammy. It wasn’t sweaty?

Laurie: Nope my hand wasn’t and neither was his?

Jodi: So there you are. You’ve had the trifecta. You have all three things that you say are essential to a lovely time. How did the evening progress from there?

Laurie: So when we realized the restaurant was about to close, we decided to leave.

He ended up just taking me home after that. But I do remember, as we were pulling up my street, I had asked him about…something about his job. And so I just remember him pulling over in front of my house. And I remember him sitting there telling me about his job and all I wanted to do is kiss him.

Laurie: I didn’t really care about his job…but I didn’t!

Jodi: You didn’t?

Laurie: I didn’t, because I didn’t want to be rude! I wanted him to finish his story. (Laughter)

Jodi: You don’t want to make that move when he was mid-sentence. Is that what you’re saying?

Laurie: But he did walk me to my door and he gave me a hug and we definitely we had a very nice kiss, or maybe two, before we said goodbye.

Jodi: Sounds like a lovely first date.

Laurie: It really was.

Jodi: How did things progress with the two of you? After that?

Laurie: We continued to date. In fact, he asked me out for a second date the next day for the following week. And we had a lovely, a fun second date too. We went to a casual dinner cause it was during the week. We went to a casual dinner and I made the mistake of bringing my dog because we walked our dog, my dog in to town and then ate.

But my dog was acting up. I think she was actually a little jealous. But he was a very good sport about it. And we ended up dating for probably about a month and a half or two months. Unfortunately, even though we did have chemistry and the connection and compatibility, and we enjoyed our time together, we did end up ending the relationship mostly because he had recently ended a very, what I would call intense relationship.

And he was still in the process of, still kind of sorting that out, even though that relationship had ended and it was final. He still was working through some things. We still stay in touch and talk every couple of weeks. And we’ll see if he comes back into my life or not. In the meantime, I am continuing to date.

Jodi: You said he was still getting over the end of another relationship. Was that a marriage?

Laurie: It was, yeah.

Jodi: You also said he showed up at the front at your front door with “Romance Central” in his arms. So the two of you progressed and then he pulled away, it sounds like.

Laurie: He did. He was very transparent with what was going on, which I really appreciated. But with that transparency, there were some things that concerned me and through conversations, healthy adult conversations, he decided that it made sense for him to work with someone, to work through some of those issues so he really understood his part in why he stayed in this relationship, this intense relationship that had very high highs and very low lows, for as long as he did.

And at the end of the day, I want to be in a relationship with somebody who understands themselves. I think, as we all reflect back on our past relationships, whether we dated somebody for a month, six months, 26 years, I believe, or at least what I try and do, is reflect back on those relationships and think about what I should learn from that relationship. What’s my takeaway? And how can I take that into my next relationship and be a better person?

Jodi: You acknowledged that you and Gary had healthy adult conversations and that you appreciated that.

Laurie: Yes. Very much.

Jodi: You have written a memoir that goes into great detail about how the impact of unhealthy communications, unhealthy conversations, or the lack of conversations, in your life has impacted you dramatically and how you have come through that to get to the place you are today.

Your book is called Sandwiched, A Memoir of Holding On and Letting Go. Please, if you would, kindly speak to how the absence of conversation and communication in your married life propelled you to want a different existence, because I have to believe that there are women listening who are also divorcees, who have also come out of relationships that they went into expecting to have open and honest and healthy conversations during. And yet those did not happen or they did initially, but they weren’t sustained throughout the marriage and that greatly impacted the ending of their marriages.

Laurie: Yes. Uh, well, for me personally, I didn’t have healthy role models as a child. So even though when I married the man that I had four children with and stayed married to for 26 years, I thought I was marrying somebody different than my dad and the role models I had. But it turned out that I married somebody very similar, which we unconsciously have a tendency to do.

So, the way I dealt with that was I put myself into therapy. I read a lot of self-help books. I did a lot of personal work, a lot of self-reflection, a lot of introspective. My book is a very, as you know, Jodi, is a very introspective look at these difficult years in my life.

When I realized in my marriage that the communication that I needed, that open honest communication, which is the foundation of a healthy relationship…when I knew that that was never going to happen, that’s when I had to divorce. I was left with no other choice, but to divorce and to realize I had to let go of this life in this family that I created and, and gave 28 years of my life to happily.

I wouldn’t change….don’t get me wrong. I would not change anything for the world. I love my daughters. I would not change that. But sometimes we have to go through these experience to learn what we don’t want. So we know what we do want, which is where I am today.

Jodi:  You traveled down a very challenging road to get to this point, you are at you authored a book that is very honest and revealing, uh, raw in a lot of places and moving. And I think is a book that a lot of women will be able to see themselves in and will benefit greatly from reading. Why did you write it?

Laurie: I wrote it because I felt for a lot of those reasons, I felt like the things that I had experienced other people could relate to and I wrote it because if I can make a difference or impact or have someone see a bit of themselves in my story. And that’s enough for them to make whatever small change they need to make in their life, so that way they can find more happiness and more joy, then I feel like I have accomplished what I set out to do.

Jodi: That is quite a mission and a very, very generous one for you to want people to learn from your story and, I guess, some of your mistakes.

Laurie: Yeah. A lot of them.

Jodi:  …that you assessed as mistakes in retrospect, of course and the wisdom that you have pulled from those mistakes and incorporated into your life now. How can our listeners find your book?

Laurie: They can find my book through any of the normal channels.  I would prefer that you bought it through your local independent bookstore, but if you must, you can, you can also find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and it’s titled Sandwiched: A Memoir of Holding on and Letting Go.

Jodi: We’ll also be putting links to your website and to where people can buy the book in the show notes for this episode.

Laurie: Thank you so much, Jodi. I appreciate that.

Jodi: Absolutely, so everyone can also check the show notes. You came out of a very tumultuous, 28 plus years, because your early years in life were not the easiest. I don’t want to disclose too much because the memoir is packed with all sorts of fascinating insights into your life.

And you met this man who could communicate, but it wasn’t the right time for the two of you. That’s what I’m gleaning from what you’ve shared.

Laurie: Yes.

Jodi: Why did you pick this date to share on this episode?

Laurie: I picked this date to share, because this is a relationship that gave me the faith, not renewed my faith, but actually gave me the faith that there is someone out there that has the qualities that I’m looking for.

Because up to this point, most of the men…. and I’ve met some really great men….there’s the chemistry, there’s the connection, there’s a compatibility, and the communication, that there is somebody out there for me. And so, that has given me the energy to continue my search for my person.

Jodi: That’s tremendous! That is really powerful because what you’re saying is, even though you and Gary at this moment in time, are not moving forward as a couple, that just the mere opportunity you had to meet him, and him enter your life validated for you that, although he may not be the right one, someone else is. Being with him and absorbing his qualities into your life has led you to believe…..likely so, I’m a believer myself, that he’s a tell, he’s a sign…. that there is someone out there who can deliver into your life, all that you feel that you need and want to be part of a really healthy, thriving coupled existence.

Laurie: And that we don’t have to settle.

Jodi: And we don’t and we shouldn’t.

Laurie: We don’t. I think that’s the main message here is: Ladies, don’t settle!

Jodi: You are so, so right in that advice! Ladies, don’t settle! So that is advice that applies to dating in general. Laurie, what advice do you have for women coming out of your experience with Gary?

Laurie: I would say that sometimes we have to let go of a relationship, whether it’s a marriage, a relationship, in order for something better to come in. And that’s what I did with my marriage. If I hadn’t done it with my marriage, I wouldn’t have had the experience with Gary. If I hadn’t been open enough to go out on this date with Gary, I would not be in a position to, you know, at some future date either have him come back into my life or have somebody who has all those qualities.

But the timing is right because I truly believe to the core now. And I didn’t before. I truly believe to the core that there is somebody out there for me who has all the qualities I’m looking for. And I believe that all of the listeners should feel the same way.

Jodi: So beautifully said! Thank you. Thank you so much, Laurie, for sharing those insights and those tremendous sage words with me and with everyone who’s listening to this episode. It has been a joy to talk with. I wish you only the best as you continue on meeting that next person who comes into your life. and I’m really delighted that you joined me on this episode.

Laurie: Jodi, it’s been such a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much. Thank you.

The post Laurie and Gary appeared first on First Date Stories.