Olivia and Robert
The following is the transcript for this podcast episode.:
Jodi: Hello, Olivia, thank you for coming back onto the podcast.
Olivia:. Thank you, Jodi. It’s great to be here.
Jodi: I am excited to be talking to you again. It has been two and a half years since we recorded the Olivia and Max episode. A lot has happened in the world, certainly in those two and a half years, and clearly a lot has happened in your life as well.
When we left off. You were 10 months into a relationship with Max. He was relocating from Germany and he was moving in with you. That you’re back on the podcast to share a story about another first date means that your relationship with Max must have come to a close. Please catch us up on what happened.
Olivia: Sure. And you’re right to say that a lot has happened in the last couple of years. Uh, both in my life and for everyone else. Max was a very special person. We met in an unusual way. We managed to overcome a lot of obstacles in terms of dating internationally. And he indeed moved in with me shortly after our podcast here in the city.
It was really wonderful for a while. But as many of your listeners probably know as well, living with someone is a real eye opener. And you start to understand if your habits are compatible, your lifestyles are compatible in a way that it’s impossible to know before you lived together.
While Max and I had a very special connection in many ways, it did become clear to me as our relationship went on living together that he was not “the one.” And it was actually, you know, it’s difficult to say this, but in retrospect it was actually my mistake that I didn’t admit that to myself and to him earlier.
And so the relationship went on for about another 10 months living together. Most of the day-to-day was really nice and no conflict or anything obvious, but my heart just was starting to tell me this just isn’t quite right. Unfortunately, it did progress to the point where he proposed to get married.
And that was sort of the breaking point that I needed to be able to tell him that it was not the right relationship for either one of us. And that was a very difficult time. Obviously very difficult for him, but also for me. And it was a lot of, there was a lot of self-realization going on where I recognized that I had been a little bit too passive, which is not in my nature normally, but that I had been a bit too passive in the relationship in terms of really admitting that it wasn’t the right thing.
That was a rough period, but ultimately it was absolutely for the best, both for him and for me. And we did part our ways. He moved back to Germany. Didn’t want to, but I think that since then, he has most likely realized he is better off searching for that special person who wants to be with him no matter what.
Jodi: I can imagine. It must’ve been the most challenging of times for both of you.
Olivia: Certainly was, it was, and it took quite a bit of courage, I think on both our parts to do the hard thing, which was not to just say “Yes, okay. This is pretty good.” And you know we’re lucky to have found a compatible partner. The easy thing would have been for me to just say “yes” and to realize that he was a very good person. We could have been pretty happy together. But I knew, and I’ve always known, that “pretty happy” was not enough for me and I needed to be unconditionally happy. And so I hope that he’s better off. I think he is. I’m certainly better off as well.
Jodi: We need to find that right partner. If you’re not with that right partner, ultimately you are not going to be able to be the best person you can be. The relationship isn’t going to be the right relationship that either of you want, and it may not go the distance.
Olivia: Exactly! Exactly! So I’m glad that I did not compromise. And I think ultimately he is probably glad or will be glad that he did not, or that I did not compromise as well.
Jodi: Thank you for, for sharing that. And I know that probably wasn’t the easiest thing to reflect upon. Some of our listeners have not heard the “Olivia and Max” episode yet, but now they know a little bit about it. But what they don’t know much about is you and your backstory. Would you share a bit about yourself, professionally in terms of things you like to do, a little bit about other aspects of your life, so that people get a sense of who you are?
Olivia: Yes, of course. I work in Global Health. My work has primarily focused on HIV and malaria and other infectious diseases. Been on the research side, but more qualitative research, not lab research, for example. And I’ve also worked within those areas within HIV and malaria from a program development point of view and a policy point of view.
So I have jumped around a lot within Global Health, but practically with a focus on a couple of different disease areas. And what I love about my work is that it takes me all over the world. Or at least it did before COVID. My biggest passion in the world is traveling. So I’ve been really fortunate to find rewarding work that also lets me explore my passion for traveling.
The traveling, of course, always leads to meeting interesting people. So because of that, I have had my disproportionate share of international relationships. Traveling and health and helping people is something that’s really rewarding. So I’m an urban dweller. I love cities.
I’ve always lived in major cities. I also really love getting out to the countryside and being in nature, hiking and swimming. But, I do find a cultural stimulation in cities that is hard to reach if you don’t live in an urban environment. So I love going out to restaurants and bars, meeting friends. I’m very social and, you know, that’s sort of social life has, of course, slowed down quite a lot in the last year and a half with COVID. But it’s slowly picking up again. I’m in my late thirties, never been married as you know, multiple relationships and one proposal, but technically.
Jodi: Thank you for sharing that background. So you and Max have parted ways, but you got back into dating. Otherwise we would not be having this conversation. How long after the two of you really ended things, did you dip your toe back into the dating waters and how did you go about doing it?
Olivia: I was not ready right away after we broke up to date again. But about two months after we parted ways, my friends convinced me to rejoin the dating scene via dating apps. And so I did dip my toe into the water by going onto Hinge, setting up a profile, not really looking around, but just putting it out there so that I could eventually come back to it.
Jodi: Did you actually start to go out with men shortly after you put your profile up?
Olivia: I didn’t go out with anyone. About a week after I put up my profile, I was a little bit curious. So I looked online. I went onto the app. And almost immediately saw a picture that I was intrigued by. And the accompanying description of this person was also intriguing. I was surprised to be honest.
I really didn’t think I was going to see anyone I was very interested in. And to be honest, even before my breakup and my previous relationship, I had been on a couple of apps, but was extremely picky. And nine times out of 10 just was not pulled in by a face or description. So I certainly wasn’t expecting to be pulled in by anyone, but I did see a profile I was interested in and I was just so intrigued by this one particular profile that I had to swipe.
Jodi: What happened next?
Olivia: Well, we immediately connected, which of course indicates that the other person has already “approved,” so to speak of you. So that obviously made me happy and even more intrigued. And so I sent him a message. And I didn’t get a message back for a couple of days, which was surprising to me. (Laughter)
And a few days later I did get a response and he told me, which I had also seen on his profile, that he was from Paris. And I of course have a bit of a weakness for the international types, as you know. I asked him if he was visiting or if he was from Paris originally and now living in my city.
He replied that he was only here for a couple of weeks, on a work-related trip. But unfortunately he was leaving the next day and the reason he had not responded to me right away, it was because he had done a hiking trip in the closest national park here. And he had been off the grid. So he was off the grid and then he got back just the night before he was flying back to Paris. And, unfortunately it meant we couldn’t meet, which was quite disappointing.
Jodi: That must’ve been very disappointing. You were intrigued, there was radio silence. He pops up and he says I’m leaving!
Olivia: Yep, exactly! It was quite disappointing. So, to be honest, at that point, I was still so sort of new to the dating scene again, and frankly wasn’t really prepared to start dating again. I was disappointed, but I also wasn’t devastated. I sort of thought, “okay, well, it just wasn’t meant to be.”
Jodi: What happened in your life after that?
Olivia: Interestingly enough, we messaged through the app for a couple of days.
And I jokingly told him that he could pop down to Biarritz, where I was going to be on vacation the next month. And in fact, he said he would love to, but that he wouldn’t be able to get away from work. I told him that was a bit too bad and that I was going to be spending time with friends. It would be lovely of course, to host him.
Again, I was mostly joking, I was going to be stopping through London on my way back to home. And, he said, coincidentally, he was going to be in London the exact same three days! And I could not believe it.
Jodi: Okay, so just to be clear, Biarritz is in the southern part of France. You were going to be traveling, by chance, to France shortly after you and he started communicating. What is this guy’s name?
Olivia: His name is Robert.
Jodi: His name is Robert. And then you discover that your plans to go to London, completely sync up with his plans to be in London at the exact same time!
Olivia: At the exact same time for the same exact three day. It was unbelievable. Neither of us could believe.
Jodi: What’d you decide?
Olivia: He said in that case, we’ll be in London the same three days. I insist we go out on a date the first night we’re both there! And I said, of course! (Laughter)
And then we had an entire month essentially to build up to it. Actually, I’m so happy that it happened that way because we got the chance to really know each other by just talking, you know, for a month before we met in person. And the rapport was just unbelievable. My friends, could tell you – the ones that I was on vacation with – could tell you that I was just laughing out loud. I was on my phone. I tend to not to be on my phone all the time, but we were corresponding back and forth every single day for a couple of weeks. And the chemistry was amazing, even thru the phone.
Jodi: When you say through the phone, are you implying that you were texting the entire time or did you actually talk as well?
Olivia: It’s funny. We were texting almost the entire time, um, and I accidentally hit the call button. One day I was with my friends. I accidentally hit the call button and it took a few seconds to realize what was happening. So I immediately hung up because I thought that would just be a bit odd. We hadn’t really planned to speak. But it was quite cute. And this shows his nature very well. He immediately called me back and I didn’t pick up because I just was just freaked out. Didn’t know what to do. (Laughter)
Jodi: You just stared at the phone?
Olivia: I just stared at the phone and his name came up. And I didn’t pick up and he left me a voicemail, very sweetly saying, “I thought you were calling to talk. I’d love to hear your voice.”
Jodi: Oh, it was no big deal for him.
Olivia: No big deal. Very open, very enthusiastic. And I think that was a really good sign.
Jodi: Did you call him right back?
Olivia: No! (Laughter) I decided I would prefer to hear his voice and have him hear my voice on our first date in London.
Jodi: You never spoke with Robert before you met face to face? You just texted the entire time?
Olivia: Yes the entire time.
Jodi: For a month?
Olivia: Yes, for almost a month. I would say it was closer to three weeks, but it was quite a lot. Yeah. We, we actually later looked back at our text correspondence during that period. And we realized we had exchanged more messages than either one of us had ever exchanged with a single friend of ours.
There’s actually an algorithm, something that you can use to sort of count the number of messages you’ve exchanged and the length and the amount of gigabytes, basically, that we had used messaging far surpassed any single one of our friends that we’d had for decades. So that alone tells you how much that we were corresponding.
Jodi: So hopefully you used WhatsApp or Signal, so you weren’t charging up, iMessage on data? (Laughter)
Jodi: Wow! Okay. Take us to London. Where did the two of you rendezvous for your first date?
Olivia: I was flying there to see friends, just as a stopover on my way home.
And, I was staying at an Airbnb. It turned out that it was right down the street from where he had gone to business school, so he knew the neighborhood very well. And so he asked me where I was staying. He was also staying in an Airbnb in a different neighborhood. But he, as gentlemen do, suggested a cute little cocktail bar that was pretty close to me.
It was a beautiful little place called The Mulwray, in Soho in London. And so I had had lunch with a friend earlier that day, and I have to say I was a little bit nervous because I knew we had this amazing rapport. But again, as I said, we hadn’t heard each other’s voices. We hadn’t seen face to face.
There are all these factors that you just cannot pick up on online of course, that are quite different in person. And so I was a little bit nervous about the date. Not because I thought I was so madly in love with him already, although in retrospect, I think that was happening. But I just didn’t know if my expectation of him was going to be met because sometimes there are things that happen in person.
Someone’s voice is a little funny or there’s just no chemistry or, you know, there’s a habit that they have, which you can’t get over. So I really didn’t know what it was going to be like in person, but my friend, the friend I had had lunch with earlier in the day said don’t worry about it.
Also, you’re only three months out of this other relationship. And of course it’s going to feel strange jumping in so quickly to, to something, whether it becomes something or not. And so I went into the date just feeling a little nervous, but then also being my usual confidence self, and telling myself to breathe and relax.
And if nothing else came up, I knew that he and I could be friends because we clearly had a shared sense of humor, shared interests and a lot of things to talk about….politics and culture and arts and travel. So I knew that no matter what happened, at least I would come out of it with a friend.
Jodi: Do you think, looking back, that if you had spoken with him before the two of you met in person, there would’ve been less pressure on you and you would’ve been less nervous for that first “hello”?
Olivia: I think I probably would have been a little less nervous because with someone’s voice, you do feel like you know them, even if you haven’t met face to face. But to be honest, I think I was sort of enjoying the nervousness. It was exciting! It was mostly anticipated.
Jodi: You were taking a heck of a vacation! You had time with friends, relaxation, beach town in the southwest of France. And on top of that, you were building anticipation to meeting this mystery man, whose voice you had never heard, but whose spelling and ability to communicate on text, you knew very well. So take us through your first date. How did it all begin?
Olivia: So I showed up at The Mulwray cocktail bar in Soho, and I was only five minutes late.
Jodi: Last time you share it on the podcast. So you’re typically 10 minutes late. So you must have been excited.
Olivia: I was excited and I was determined not to show up late.
So I got there so a few minutes late, but thinking it’s a woman’s prerogative, especially on a first date. But he wasn’t there. So I thought, “Oh good. I’m off the hook.” And I settled in to the booth, the dark blue velvet booth in this beautiful cocktail bar. It was very quiet. There was some nice jazz playing.
It was actually a very relaxing environment. Very romantic. But also relaxing because there wasn’t a lot of extra noise that weren’t people crowding everywhere. So in retrospect, it was the perfect place for a first date. And I sat there with my cocktail for about 10 minutes, I would say. (Laughter) And then this extremely tall handsome man walked through the bar door.
He was even taller than he had described on the app. I knew he was extremely tall, but he was even taller and I couldn’t believe it! (Laughter) So I got up and we did the awkward first date hug where you don’t know someone. And it was very nice actually. It felt really natural. It didn’t feel strange at all.
We sat down. He ordered a drink and we just started talking and it was exactly like our correspondence that we’d had for the previous three weeks. It was natural. The conversation flowed. It was funny. It was serious. There was a nice ebb and flow. It was meaningful and personal, not just like chit chat and talking about things like, what do you do for a living and this and that, because actually we’d gotten a lot of those things out of the way.
And he’s also not someone who’s very good at chitchat. He’s very intense and he’s very interested in always diving deep, even with people he doesn’t know very well. He always, I want to say, tries, but he doesn’t try, it’s involuntary. He’s driven to have meaningful conversation. And I think that that had come through in our text correspondence and it came through in our first date conversation as well. And so we just talked about so many things and hours flew by.
Jodi: People who strive to have meaningful conversations are usually people who strive to have meaningful connections, because conversation leads to connection. Did you feel during this evening that the connection was just locking in between the two?
Olivia: Absolutely! It felt unlike any first date I’ve had before. And I’ve had first dates where the chemistry was very intense, but the emotional connection wasn’t quite there, or there was a nice emotional connection, but I kind of left the date feeling like this person’s just a friend. But this was unlike anything before where on one hand I felt like we had known each other for years. Just the way the conversation was flowing.
We were so comfortable with each other. It was lively and fun, but sweet and personal as well, but you know, the comfort of it didn’t negate the fact that it was also really exciting because here was a confirmation of, I think, both of our hope and expectations that this was going to be a really meaningful date and a meaningful connection. And it was so it was simultaneously comfortable and exciting, which is a really rare combination and something I haven’t really had before.
Jodi: It sounds very powerful the way the two of you came together that evening, that first face to face, encounter that you had. Had Robert been married before?
Olivia: No, he had not been married before. He had had a number of serious relationships. But as he told me later, as we got to know each other, every relationship, even the ones that were good on paper or even good in real life, there was something missing. And I knew exactly what he meant because for me, it had always felt that way as well.
And I realized that night that I felt differently about it. In this short period of time than I’d ever felt. And he certainly felt that way about me. It felt very special and that connection was very apparent to us. It didn’t even need to be verbally acknowledged. It was just so apparent.
Jodi: So you’re in London, you had a drink in hand, he comes in and then this extraordinary date commences for you. How did the evening evolve from there?
Olivia: Well, the evening itself started pretty late. I think we were meant to meet at The Malwray at 10:00 PM. So it was definitely a post dinner drink.
And then after a couple of cocktails, the manager came over and said, “I can see that you two are having a wonderful time, but unfortunately we have to close in half an hour.” So we looked at each other and said, well, we don’t want this date to end. “Where can we go?” So we located another great little cocktail bar down the street.
We went. We walked down. I had actually been there with a friend on a previous trip and luckily it was very close by. So we went and we just continued our conversation and we had another drink. And then around two o’clock in the morning, I caught an Uber back to my Airbnb. He located a rental bicycle somehow at two o’clock in the morning and London located at a rental bicycle and he wheeled himself back to his Airbnb.
We made plans to meet the next afternoon, which we did. We went for a lovely walk. Again, the conversation just flowed. It really felt like we had been dating or that we were dating already and that we knew each other so well. And then the weekend continued
We actually had dinner with a couple of friends of mine who were also in town. And that was a lot of fun because I was able to see him in a context, outside of a date, just with me. And I think that’s actually very important for people to see how their potential partner might interact with them and with their friends in a group setting because people can change.
Jodi: This was a lot of time to be spending with a stranger. He was a stranger to you until you met him, really. Because we can communicate with people as long as one does in advance of meeting, but there is something, as you said, really essential when you bring in people together and that’s that you are face to face, right? So on this short trip to London, you have had this odyssey of an experience with this man.
You met him. You’ve had drinks with him. You’ve spent actual time walking together. Now you’re meeting friends. There’s this whole friend dimension, often this takes weeks and a typical paced relationship. And if it’s during COVID, that’s a whole different story to unfold in this manner. Did you feel like you were on a speedway racing ahead together? Was it the right pace or was it too fast?
Olivia: Not at all. Didn’t feel like we were speeding or like it was too fast, but of course, in retrospect it was, we were making leaps and bounds in a single short weekend the kind of progress that as you said, most people make over the course of weeks or even months. It did go quite quickly.
But in retrospect, we realized that. In the moment, it just felt so natural. I think for both of us. It’s almost as though there wasn’t even a question we would have dinner with my friends that we would go for a walk or see each other again the third day in a row. In fact, the third day in a row, we decided to go to the airport together.
So we were on the train because he had a flight back to Paris. I had a flight home and. He actually only told me later that he extended his trip by a couple of hours, just to spend more time with me. He changed his flight, which was supposed to depart. We were on the train to Heathrow engrossed in conversation, just chatting away and we didn’t realize the train had stopped.
There had been some kind of an accident on the, on the tracks. But you know, w there was no bother to us. We were having this wonderful conversation. But then the train started up again and we pulled into Heathrow and I looked at my phone and I realized the time and the baggage was closing in 10 minutes. And so I said we really need to run for my gate. So he helped me. I was pulling this huge suitcase we ran through there.
We got up to the gate and they said, “Oh, we’re so sorry. Baggage closed a few minutes ago. There’s no way we can let you on the flight.”
And I said, “You’re joking. I need to fly across the Atlantic and across the country. And you’ve got to let me on this flight. I actually have a work meeting tomorrow. It’s very important.”
And they said, “Nope, sorry. There’s nothing we can do.”
If you travel a lot internationally, you know, that Heathrow is very strict. They really are not willing to negotiate.
Jodi: The two of you in the course of your three days together now are in crisis management mode. Wow! Okay. So let’s just layer that on to everything else. Take us through how you dealt with the situation.
Olivia: It was fascinating because I again was able to see the side of Robert that you would probably not see for at least weeks or months into a relationship. He was very calm. He said, “Okay, we can figure this out.”
So we sat down. We both got on our phones. I found a flight the next morning, which was essentially about a 24 hour delay.
He said, “Of course, I’m going to change my flight to tomorrow and stay with you. There’s no way I’m going to give up spending an extra day with this amazing person.”
He literally said these things!
Jodi: So romantic!
Olivia: So romantic and so vulnerable! To an honest, many men would not be willing to sort of share or let their feelings be so known and so open.
So he changed his flight. I changed my flight and we looked at each other as if we had like a new lease on life and said, “Okay, what’s next?” (Laughter)
So he said, why don’t we go rent a car and we’ll drive out to the countryside and explore a little bit? So we did!
Jodi: Crisis averted and an opportunity for more vacation and time together! That’s very creative thinking and really a tremendous way to take a what could have been a very stressful situation and make it a very fun!
Olivia: Exactly! It was. We made the absolute best of it and had absolutely had a ball. I mean, we drove out to the countryside. We discovered this really cute little town called Rye, a very quintessential town in the English countryside with cobbled streets and little pugs. We just wandered around and had lunch and then had dinner. And it was unbelievably romantic. So I think neither of us was very neither of us regretted the change that is for sure.
Jodi: Thank you, United Airlines! (Laughter)
Olivia: Exactly! And it’s funny. To this day, my mom is still convinced I skipped my flight in order to spend more time with them. And I, I keep reassuring her. It’s not the case, but she’s convinced.
Jodi: Well, she’ll have to trust her daughter. (Laughter)
The two of you part ways at Heathrow the following day. Bring us up to speed on what’s going on now with you and Robert please.
Olivia: We have come a very long way since then. We continued to keep in touch, talking on the phone this time with voices almost every day for the next week. And it took all of seven days for him to ask me to come visit him in Paris, which I agreed to do a few weeks later.
And then we essentially swapped locations. He came to visit me. I went to visit him every other month for almost a year. It turned into a very serious long distance relationship. And then at some point it became obvious that the long distance wasn’t the most ideal situation. So I decided to move to Paris and we are living there together now.
Jodi: That’s a huge life change! Could you ever have foreseen this, that one swipe to the right on an app you really didn’t want to be on very much, after the end of a relationship, would evolve into you becoming a European citizen?
Olivia: No, I could never have imagined. I have always embraced adventure and opportunity and spontaneity. But I definitely could not have imagined that just going on to that app at that time would have led to this. And ultimately in retrospect, there were so many things that had to align.
Had I gone on that app just one week later, he would have been out of town. He would have been gone in his profile, would not have shown up for me. And in addition to the amazing timing of him being where I was living and being on the app and my going on that particular week, which could have easily slipped out of our hands, we also found out later that he had been living on the same street as me in my city While he was there for work. Literally four blocks away and he had been doing laundry at my corner laundromat. We could have passed, and maybe did pass, each other on the street during those few weeks before we connected online.
Jodi: That is wild!
Olivia: It was wild. And then being in London for the exact same three days, one month later. It’s just that so many things had to align and come together for us to meet. And I’m not superstitious, but it truly feels like it was meant to be.
Jodi: Do you believe in fate?
Olivia: I do. I’ve always had a complex relationship with the idea of fate, but if anything makes me feel like fate in some form exists, it is my relationship.
And it was that feeling that was so apparent to both of us and so strong that also led us to become engaged about a year ago.
Olivia: Thank you! It’s been magical and wild being engaged and trying to plan a wedding during COVID. But we have overcome all the obstacles and I think we’re stronger for it.
Jodi: I have no doubt that you are very strong as a couple given all that you have experienced together.
You know, the next question I’m going to ask, because I asked it to you when you were on the first time, and that is….what have you learned from this experience and what advice do you have for listeners?
Olivia: It’s an interesting question because I think I have relearned some of the things I learned before and in a different way, such as, and most importantly, the importance of being open.
I had previous to my last relationship that ended, I had been very hesitant to go online and to do online dating and to do the apps largely because a lot of my friends seem to have disappointing experiences.
I also always wanted to meet someone in real life. That was my ideal. But when I did go online and I met people, and not just people, but especially the love of my life that I’m with now, I realized how important it is to be open to evolving and to be open to things that you resist at first.
And that’s not to say, do everything, try everything. And if you’re truly uncomfortable, you shouldn’t do it. To push your boundaries a little bit and to be open, to meeting people in different kinds of ways, because there are all kinds of ways you can meet people and doing an app going on an app is just one more way. It just broadens the pool of people that you are exposed to.
So I think being open minded to how you meet someone is really, really important. And that’s only been emphasized to me more now.
And then the other really important lesson I’ve learned from this is the importance of vulnerability, both for the other person, your partner, being vulnerable and being open and honest is absolutely critical to having a healthy relationship.
And I honestly had never met someone as open and comfortable with his feelings as Robert. But it also showed me that I need to be more vulnerable. I’ve never considered myself a defensive or closed person. But when you’re with someone who is so open themselves and able to be themselves, you realize how silly it is and what a waste of time it is to be closed off in any way.
And in my previous relationship I had in fact ended up being closed off because I was ignoring what my instinct was telling me, which was this isn’t right. You should end it. I ignored that for long enough. And I realize now with Robert that I can’t repress anything if I want this to be a healthy relationship.
It doesn’t mean to let it all hang out or to, you know, over-communicate in terms of needing to talk about your feelings 24 hours a day, but in terms of the important fundamental issues that arise in a relationship it’s critical to be yourself and to expect out of the other person too, because that makes for an incredibly healthy relationship. And it’s a standard that is hard to meet, and it’s a standard that’s hard to hold others too. But I think when you do, you realize how healthy and how positive your relationships can become.
Jodi: In any part of your life, not just a romantic part of your life.
Olivia: Absolutely. It applies to everyone, especially your romantic partner, because that’s who you spend the most time with ultimately. But absolutely it’s important for every relationship.
Jodi: So true! Congratulations again on finding the love of your life. I wish you two forever happiness and just the life that you dream for yourselves to become true!
Olivia: Thank you, Jodi. And I’m happy to say it is already coming true.
Jodi: Tremendous! Thank you so much for coming back again and please make this the last time that you’re my guest on the podcast.
Olivia: That’s a promise! Thanks Jodi.
Photo by Lucas Davies on Unsplash